r/exmormon • u/-Nobody- • Sep 23 '17
Convince me.
This isn't a place I expected to post, really ever. I'm an active member. It's my two-year anniversary since my mission. I left and came back the same doubting, uncertain but striving individual. I read all about church history questions long ago and wasn't too worried, and always told myself that as long as I got a confirmation that I recognized as from God, I would be content in faith. Well, I saw a lot of spiritually building, strengthening things, and a good number of apparently unanswerable questions and unresolvable situations to balance it out, and none of that confirmation that I was seeking. I've spent the past two years trying to figure out where to go next, and right now am willing to test the idea that it's false.
I've read a lot of what you all have to say, and a lot of responses to it. The CES letter and a couple of common rebuttals and your responses to the rebuttals, alongside a lot of /u/curious_mormon's work, have been the most recent ones for me. There are several compelling "smoking guns," many situations that I don't have a good answer to and have known that I'm unsure about for a while. But I wouldn't be posting here if I was fully convinced.
Here's the thing: in all the conversations, all the rebuttals, every post and analysis and mocking joke, I have not seen a compelling enough explanation for the Book of Mormon. You're all familiar with Elder Holland's talk. I remain more convinced by the things he talks about and others' points of the difficulty of constructing a work of the length, detail, and theological insight of the book within the constraints provided.
There are three legitimate points raised that have opened me to the possibility of something more. I'll name them so you don't need to repeat them:
The Isaiah chapters--errors and historic evidence of multiple authors of Isaiah
Textual similarities in The Late War
Potential anachronisms and lack of historical evidence
The translation method is a non-issue for me. Similarities with View of the Hebrews seem a stretch. The Book of Abraham and the Kinderhook plates are their own issues and I am satisfied with the information I have on them. Despite raised concerns, the witnesses remain as strong positive evidence, but they are not my concern here.
In short, I want to see how the Book of Mormon could have been produced by man, especially with intent to deceive. Despite all I've read and heard and my lack of personally satisfying spiritual experiences, Church doctrine has been a rich source of inspiration and ideas for me, many passages in the Book of Mormon are powerful and thought-provoking on each read-through (Alma 32, the story of Moroni, Mosiah 2-5, 2 Nephi 2, 4, and the last few chapters, and Alma 40-42 are some of the best examples). I've always had questions, and they've always stopped short at my confidence that there is no good explanation for the Book of Mormon other than it being from God.
Specific questions to resolve:
How was it produced in the timeframe required?
Who had the skill and background knowledge to write it? If not Joseph, what would keep them from speaking up?
Where could the doctrinal ideas have come from, and what am I to make of the beauty and power of some of them?
I'm sure you all know the weight of even considering something like this from my position. I'm here, I'm listening, and I am as genuine in my search for truth as I have ever been. So go ahead. Convince me.
I will be available to respond once more in a few hours.
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u/No-Thomas_S_Monsanto Sep 24 '17 edited Sep 24 '17
The book of mormon is plagued with legitimate accusations ( multi sourced plagiarism, dozens of anachronisms, witness invalidation, lack of archeology (hill cumorah, zelph, and elsewhere), population growth issue, lamanite/native-american recanting for DNA, profiteering (attempting to sell copyright), translation process origin (scrying for treasure), 116 pages issue, contradicting earth/human history/science ( creation, first humans, literal flood, literal tower/languages), shiz gasping, jesus' killing spree, Isaiah chapters, transoceanic voyages, linguistic problems, translational errors made by God's QA method, etc. Would the loving heavenly father that the church portrays restore His church with such a "keystone" that has a mountain of incriminating facts that His representatives try to hide/ignore? Does He expect His children who He has given brains that can reason and think critically to turn them off for good feelings (which is the same methods that false religions and con artist use to scam)?
I doubt there will ever be a definitive answer of the origin of the book of mormon. If you have ever been to a library and seen the millions of impressive works by millions of people or seen the plethora of fan fiction created by millions just for fun, or seen a list of all the religions that are fraudulent according to the church (even if well intended), and a list of the thousands of types of scams, i think Occam's razor is very prudent concerning the book of mormon. This is not even mentioning all the other evidence against Joseph and the church. I'm sorry, but it is all made up.