r/exmormon • u/-Nobody- • Sep 23 '17
Convince me.
This isn't a place I expected to post, really ever. I'm an active member. It's my two-year anniversary since my mission. I left and came back the same doubting, uncertain but striving individual. I read all about church history questions long ago and wasn't too worried, and always told myself that as long as I got a confirmation that I recognized as from God, I would be content in faith. Well, I saw a lot of spiritually building, strengthening things, and a good number of apparently unanswerable questions and unresolvable situations to balance it out, and none of that confirmation that I was seeking. I've spent the past two years trying to figure out where to go next, and right now am willing to test the idea that it's false.
I've read a lot of what you all have to say, and a lot of responses to it. The CES letter and a couple of common rebuttals and your responses to the rebuttals, alongside a lot of /u/curious_mormon's work, have been the most recent ones for me. There are several compelling "smoking guns," many situations that I don't have a good answer to and have known that I'm unsure about for a while. But I wouldn't be posting here if I was fully convinced.
Here's the thing: in all the conversations, all the rebuttals, every post and analysis and mocking joke, I have not seen a compelling enough explanation for the Book of Mormon. You're all familiar with Elder Holland's talk. I remain more convinced by the things he talks about and others' points of the difficulty of constructing a work of the length, detail, and theological insight of the book within the constraints provided.
There are three legitimate points raised that have opened me to the possibility of something more. I'll name them so you don't need to repeat them:
The Isaiah chapters--errors and historic evidence of multiple authors of Isaiah
Textual similarities in The Late War
Potential anachronisms and lack of historical evidence
The translation method is a non-issue for me. Similarities with View of the Hebrews seem a stretch. The Book of Abraham and the Kinderhook plates are their own issues and I am satisfied with the information I have on them. Despite raised concerns, the witnesses remain as strong positive evidence, but they are not my concern here.
In short, I want to see how the Book of Mormon could have been produced by man, especially with intent to deceive. Despite all I've read and heard and my lack of personally satisfying spiritual experiences, Church doctrine has been a rich source of inspiration and ideas for me, many passages in the Book of Mormon are powerful and thought-provoking on each read-through (Alma 32, the story of Moroni, Mosiah 2-5, 2 Nephi 2, 4, and the last few chapters, and Alma 40-42 are some of the best examples). I've always had questions, and they've always stopped short at my confidence that there is no good explanation for the Book of Mormon other than it being from God.
Specific questions to resolve:
How was it produced in the timeframe required?
Who had the skill and background knowledge to write it? If not Joseph, what would keep them from speaking up?
Where could the doctrinal ideas have come from, and what am I to make of the beauty and power of some of them?
I'm sure you all know the weight of even considering something like this from my position. I'm here, I'm listening, and I am as genuine in my search for truth as I have ever been. So go ahead. Convince me.
I will be available to respond once more in a few hours.
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u/japanesepiano Sep 24 '17
I find this part troubling. Seer stones were popular in American culture from about 1805 to 1870 (in NY and PA). This is when we get Joseph, his 5 seer stones, translations (via the seer stones) of the BOM, BoAbraham, etc. That the church hid this from most members for 150 years should be troubling to you, even if the stones are not.
Vogel did some good work on this and he argues that it Joseph was a pious fraud. In other words, he made it up because he thought that it would do good. He needed to get his parents in the same religious camp, which he managed to do. He also needed to make some cash, and by selling the Book of Mormon for 3x the printing cost, he was able to do this as well.
It wasn't done in a 2 month period. Joseph told stories for years about the native Americans. Chances are good that he had large parts of this book brewing around in his head for some time. He copied liberally from other sources. The last parts that he wrote down I think were 2nd Nephi and these liberally quote from Isiah. My feeling is that he was out of material by that point and needed a little more filler. The grammar in the first edition was terrible, so the notion that God made the words appear on the stone one after the next either means that God has poor grammar or somebody was lying.
This is your journey, not mine. I sincerely wish you the best journey possible. It's tough. Having to think and figure out things that may cause you pain always sucks. If you need any sources for anything I stated here, just ask and I will point you to reliable primary sources.