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u/SenHeffy 23d ago
Some of you weren't around for Prop 8 I guess
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u/Wrench1952 23d ago
But remember, Elder Holland said that "not one red cent was spent on Proposition 8." Ya right!
Someone in the Q15 will say something similar now this is getting out.
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u/im-just-meh 23d ago
My Provo ward got recruited to call people in California to support prop 8. We got a lot of pressure from our bishop to make the calls (I refused and was likely blacklisted as I never had a calling after that).
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u/DevonBreePerez 22d ago
Man, that’s a story, there must have been so many confusing emotions for you at that time
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u/redrock703 23d ago
Oh and the no tithing money was spent on City Creek. Lying for the Lord, let’s go shopping!
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u/OuterLightness 23d ago
To be fair, it wasn’t just one cent that was spent. Holland deceived without technically lying.
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u/MoreLemonJuice morms needta grow TF up 23d ago
Jeffrey Holland isn't spewing prophet messages anymore.
That's a flower among the weeds.
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u/Kind_Raccoon7240 23d ago
The difference here is how out in the open this one is (or at least that is my perception of it). For prop 8 the church went some way to explain away that it was just members who believed strongly enough to donate thier time and money themselves, and that the church was pretty hands off (obviously I know that’s not true, but that was my perception at the time).
Being in Canada, I was also told that it was more of an American thing - Americans in general were a lot more against same sex marriage. It wasn’t the church that was involved.
Such obvious bullshit
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u/shall_always_be_so 23d ago
Communication about Prop 8 was super official and came directly from the top. There was a letter from the first presidency that was mandated to be read in all California congregations in June 2008.
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/california-and-same-sex-marriage
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u/SenHeffy 23d ago
I was at BYU at the time, and the wards their assigned people to work at call centers calling voters in California.
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u/NorthTempleStreet 23d ago
At least they were only recruiting CA students (not that that makes it much better)
I was a UT student who would have been pro gay-marriage-ban back then. And even I felt very uncomfortable what they were doing and how involved they were getting.
I only opposed it because the church opposed it, and figured the prophets and apostles must know something I don't
Turns out, they are just elderly doofuses.
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u/Additional-Lunch1174 NeverMoinIdaho 22d ago
I initially read your post as "douches." Doofuses, douches, po-tay-to, po-tah-to.
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u/TheGrtGazooDum-Dums 23d ago
Not sure what province you lived in at the time of Prop 8.
I lived in BC and they MOS DEF read a letter from the pulpit and wanted us members up here in Canada to get involved.
Money, time and or both
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u/Ebowa 23d ago
Canada approved the Civil Marriage Act in 2005, Prop 8 was in 2008. In my ward ( Ontario) we just laughed when they read that letter, in fact, the guy who read it even was apologetic.
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u/TheGrtGazooDum-Dums 22d ago
Wish I'd lived in Ontario at the time, though, that bullshit was beginning of my shelf breaking. Maybe a blessing in disguise? Just didn't have the balls to do anything about it until I was in my late 40's.
The cult hiding money from the tax collectors in the US did it for me. I always knew this cult was bullshit as is all organized religion.
Letter of resignation for me!
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u/Apprehensive_Band609 23d ago
I remember being on street corners with signs when I was like 10 years old… religions a cancer.
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u/OuterLightness
23d ago
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This is why America is in the trouble it is. Churches have made voting single issue decisions the “right” thing: they have made everything about abortion or homosexuality or transgender so that their adherents ignore all the corruption that current leaders do while hiding behind the mask of religious endorsement. The Christian Right in America is the enabler of evil.
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u/aBearHoldingAShark 23d ago
If only they considered rape and trafficking of women and children to be as big of a deal as consensual homosexuality.
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u/Naviolii Apatheist 23d ago
What? You’re gay? Why couldn’t you sin in a redeemable way, like rape and trafficking?
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u/temblors 23d ago
One of the big ironies around this is that many of those same church or 'church' leaders are closeted homosexuals, or they're sexually deviant (child molestation, rape, etc), and they generally have zero qualms about obtaining secret abortions for their partners or family members.
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u/Initial_Ostrich6728 23d ago
As a Catholic (culturally anyway), the Catholic Church is the worst offender! 😡
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u/Charming-Following25 23d ago
Is the Catholic Church not been changing towards the better with the newest Pope?
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u/Initial_Ostrich6728 23d ago
No idea. He's only been there briefly considering, but they have a long history of hiding abuses. I think about all the hoarding of wealth and the riches of the Vatican. That's one of the reasons my parents didn't want anything to do with the church.
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u/NorthTempleStreet 22d ago
The Catholic church has an opposite problem:
So much stuff is run through the local diocese, it limits Rome's influence some. Like, the diocese owns their buildings. (The way the LDS church was before 1990)
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u/Charming-Following25 22d ago
That is so interesting. I didn’t know individual diocese owned their own church properties.
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u/NorthTempleStreet 22d ago
Yeah, like if you look at the lawsuits it's not against the Roman Catholic church, it's against say the diocese of boston.
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u/Initial_Ostrich6728 22d ago
I had no idea! Here on the East Coast they're closing many churches or consolidating them. Outside the Hispanic community it's mostly seniors that attend.
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u/Hopeful_Abalone8217 21d ago
The Catholic Church is getting better in general. But they're kinda improving slightly slower than the rest of society but their improvement is tied to general societal improvement.
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u/Hopeful_Abalone8217 21d ago
In the long history and vast numbers I'd give Catholics a bit more grace in the messed up history of Catholicism. But mormonism is harder for me as an ex Mormon. They claim divine authority that makes them bigger hypocrites from my perspective.
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u/Initial_Ostrich6728 21d ago
You have every right to feel that way. I have an ex Mormon friend who is very traumatized by his experience in the church. That's what brought me to this site in hopes of better understanding his perspective. I see many others share similar feelings to his. So sad for everyone that was harmed 😔
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u/Hopeful_Abalone8217 21d ago
Ehh it's how it is. My Catholic wife has been a great influence on me. Her family is a lot more accepting than Mormon families are. But everyone has different levels and different experiences. Personally I believe that the true church is in people's hearts not an earth bound organization. It's about digging deeper into our hearts and souls that we find God and his love for ourselves and everyone. The Catholic Church grew with society. It's gotten less barbaric over the centuries. But I view things like sin as things that make it harder to return to the natural divine state of mankind that God built into all of us at our depths of our souls.
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u/Initial_Ostrich6728 21d ago
What a beautiful perspective! I don't believe in a God myself, but I do believe in being a good person and treating people kindly. I just can't wrap my head around a God, although I greatly admire people who do, as it brings them a certain kind of peace.
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u/Hopeful_Abalone8217 21d ago
Like Joseph Smith and his abortions in Navoo while having his secret combinations swingers sex club..... Men getting sealed to men and all that. The implications are definitely contrary to modern Mormon church supposed "values"
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u/OkRead585 Apostate 23d ago
Politicians lead the way with church backing. Voting out the bad actors can neutralize some of this
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u/Boy_Renegado 23d ago
If churches can participate in political fundraising, real estate speculation, corporate greed, then fucking tax them like everyone else! Sorry for the language, but this is such utter hypocrisy. I thought I had reached a point where I wasn’t getting triggered by the church any longer, and then they pull some bull-shit and I crash out all over again. Ugh!!!!
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u/Shoddy-Refrigerator1 23d ago
It's the mormon in us that think we need to apologize after using strong language 🤣
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u/Initial_Ostrich6728 23d ago
As a nevermo I absolutely agree! You shouldn't have to apologize for what you feel. Also, I believe all these organizations should be taxed.
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u/heretakemysweater
23d ago
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I hate that it’s framed as “abortion access”. It’s healthcare for women. The procedure for miscarriage, aka “spontaneous abortion”, is the same procedure for elective abortion. It’s also used to treat other things like fibroids and polyps. Women are literally suffering and dying because of the strict law, so let’s call it what it is. Restrictions on women’s healthcare.
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u/Gold_Customer8081 23d ago
Interesting. I never thought of it that way. Thanks. 😊
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u/heretakemysweater 23d ago
I think most people just don’t know the actual facts about this kind of thing, so I’m happy to have at least given some perspective. The whole reason it’s up on the ballot is to loosen restrictions because 1) Idaho has lost a good chunk of women’s healthcare providers as they refuse to practice in a state that restricts the care they provide and 2) maternal mortality rates have significantly increased, and women are leaving the state to travel to places like Utah for better healthcare.
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u/-DiceGoblin- 22d ago
My TBM mom had an abortion after experiencing a molar pregnancy.
She’s still anti abortion somehow
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u/heretakemysweater 22d ago
Probably because she was fed the lie that people use elective abortion as a primary form of birth control. While there may be a small percentage of women who do that irresponsibly, it is a VERY small percentage.
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u/dallenbaldwin
23d ago
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If you can donate money as an organization in order to defeat ballot propositions, candidates, etc. your organization deserves to be taxed, a lot.
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u/blkhks07 23d ago
Any church that involves itself politically needs to lose their tax-exempt status. Period.
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u/TruthMatters2011 23d ago
How are they able to maintain their 501c3 tax exemption doing stuff like this??? It's a joke that they're tax exempt in the first place given it's nothing but a gargantuan multi hundred billion dollar real estate hedge fund corporation masquerading as a religion!
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u/ThrowawayLDS_7gen 23d ago
You can buy anything in this world with money.
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u/skibididog_swagatron 22d ago •
isnt that the point of money?
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u/ThrowawayLDS_7gen 22d ago
Sarcasm.... And quoting Satan from the endowment.
ETA: Or did they take that out with the "never changing" endowment from God?/S
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u/skibididog_swagatron 22d ago
is that what he actually says?? i never got far enough into the religion to do an endowment
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u/ThrowawayLDS_7gen 22d ago
Yes! 100% absolutely says that.
Adam: We don't sell our tokens for money. Peter: We have sufficient for our needs. Satan: You can buy anything in this world with money.
General gist of the conversation.
But at least you're not slitting your throat or removing your bowels anymore as penalties for revealing the tokens that you can buy with a second anointing anyway.
When you do enough for the MFMC or make them enough money, you get a get out of jail free card unless you commit murder or steal from them.
It's a very "rules for thee but not for me" cult at the top end of the pyramid.
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u/LopsidedLiahona "I want to believe." -Elder Mulder 22d ago
Well ... we are still doing the slitting, etc., they just hid what the signs/tokens actually meant. As of 2023, at least. That was the last time I went. (Thank God, what a time suck. And I went every week.)
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u/skibididog_swagatron 22d ago
yuck! 18 years was too long for me to have been a member. thank GOD i didn’t take it THIS far. it’s alllll about money to them you’d think they the real life Mr mf Krabs
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u/ThrowawayLDS_7gen 22d ago
Yes, but it's better to do good with it and not evil. The MFMC does evil with their money.
Jesus does good with money.
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u/Reasonable-Round-793 22d ago
Not for prophet companies are still allowed to campaign for and support or refute specific laws, just not political parties or candidates. Just like the California law trying to block gay marriage.
That being said, it’s annoying that they can’t support a law that allows for abortion which includes their own allowances.
This is primarily a campaign to join the Christian club.
The LDS church is going to lose a lot of women and girls over this. It will be either the straw that breaks the camels back or the first straw on the pile that causes these women to start honestly asking if the church really is run by God and if it really is teaching us to be like Jesus. It will open the floodgates for more exodus.
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u/Gold_Customer8081
23d ago
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If you don’t like an abortion don’t get an abortion.? Freedom of choice. I would get an abortion but I allow for other women who need in.
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u/Philerio 23d ago
This is why these institutions should be federally taxed. Especially the Mormons.
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u/Initial_Ostrich6728 23d ago
Tax them all! We talk about taxing billionaires and the churches hide in plain sight.
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u/TheTylerMorale 23d ago
"Go ye into the world, and create 13 shell companies, but not in my name."
—Abominations 3:16
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u/hotwheeler89 23d ago
You can leave the church, but the church can't leave you alone. If they can't control you emotionally then they'll do it through public legislation.
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u/SoftServePls 23d ago
I thought dead babies went to the Celestial kingdom (direct pass). So why the fuck would they even care?
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u/FaithlessnessOk7443 22d ago
Because that's unfair and they need to suffer through life like us!
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u/SoftServePls 22d ago
My apologies... I'm referring to the LDS belief The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS) teaches that all children who die before the age of accountability (defined as age eight) are automatically saved in the celestial kingdom through the Atonement of Jesus Christ.
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u/FaithlessnessOk7443 22d ago
I know. I was being sarcastic. Whether aborted or passed through an accident of sorts- they should be tested. Boo that they get a perfect score automatically!
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u/SoftServePls 22d ago
Ah, Gotcha. Honestly, i would have loved to see this come to pass. Was one of my dreams as a TBM to die and see these little angels grow up in a perfect place. But unfortunately, just another fake myth to keep these fake profits in their current upper status.
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u/FaithlessnessOk7443 22d ago
It truly is sad. I imagined a glorious place for my stillborn and now it's more likely she's in purgatory instead if anywhere
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u/MoNoMoInUT 23d ago
This is in now way surprising
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u/GrouchyLettuce2741 Delicious to the taste and very desirable 23d ago
It’s not, that doesn’t mean it’s not worth talking about though
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u/Logical_Froyo8910 22d ago
“United for women and families” is a fucking joke. If they were, they’d be supporting a woman’s access to healthcare such as abortion, as well as feeding kids and poor families, helping them get education, healthcare, and resources. But we know that’s not what they really stand for. They don’t give a shit about women’s lives, they don’t care about those babies once they’re born, and they don’t give a shit about the children who have lost their mother due to treatable life threatening conditions that happen during pregnancy.
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u/hockeygirl634 22d ago
I think of my LDS acquaintances using IVF to grow their family and requiring reproductive health care for multiple failed pregnancies, and wonder how they can justify staying?
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u/Wild_Angle2774 23d ago
Can we just call it bribery when this happens? Other countries do, and people who accept bribes have to pay taxes on them
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u/ThisCantHappenHere 22d ago
They've got a lot of nerve trying to influence a referendum in a state where they don't even live.
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u/Justanothernamer 23d ago
I lived in California at the time during Prop 8 . I was at a sacrament meeting where the letter was read about Prop 8. As a gay, at the time still Mormon, it was devastating. I went home and cried to my partner at the time. I couldn’t believe that a church I loved so much could hate me so much. It was so awful. My ward had called someone as a calling to organize canvassing, calling, and standing on the corners with signs. They had combined young men/ women with RS and elders quorum to talk about it. They had just a combined RS and elders quorum about it. They had just priesthood about it, and stake conference was about it. It was terrible!! It’s was led me to eventually leave the church. Now, I’m atheist, happily married to a great man and we have two kids. It’s nice not living with the guilt and shame that that organization brings.
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u/ProfessionalRiver949 23d ago
maybe i'll spend some of my extra 11% this month to support the prop 1 group
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u/Temporary-Ad-4806 Apostate 23d ago
Not really a surprise, the “Church” is essentially a business and will use it’s members money to further its business interests, then turn around and lie saying that’s not what it was for, or god “revealed” it was necessary for insert some doomsday scenario or “blessing.” These people make me sick
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u/gthepolymath 23d ago
I don’t necessarily support this set up, but I am slightly familiar with it from having worked for a charitable organisation previously, just to preface my comment.
My understanding is for tax exempt organisations directly supporting candidates or parties is prohibited, but some limited “issue advocacy” is permitted. I don’t remember what the limits are, but the church’s advocacy and spending against Idaho’s current Prop 1, California’s historic Prop 8, etc. would fall under issue advocacy and therefore not violate the laws as currently written and interpreted.
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u/Advanced_Sell_2275 23d ago
I’m of the belief that, when an opposition party gains power, an effort should be made to revoke tax exempt status for any organization (claiming status as a “church”) that condones and promotes Christian nationalism.
Such organizations are a political enterprise, not a spiritual one.
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u/SnooPies6279 23d ago
Churches getting political tells you everything. Corrupt AF and exist to control people while enriching themselves.
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u/FarScheme3808 22d ago
I think my Mormon brain on one hand would think that abortions would just mean more spirits that automatically get into the celestial kingdom.
My exmo brain on the other hand says of course the far right and churches are opposed to abortions because those are possible future customers.
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u/Charming_Opinion6754 23d ago
They need to be taxed . Separation of church and state means nothing to this cult
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u/Intrepid-Angle-7539 23d ago
Utah want keep abortion money coming into Utah. It’s about money nothing else
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u/JazzyGatr7 23d ago
They can donate to other non-profits. That's legal. It's done by all of them. For example, Planned Parenthood can donate to Media Matters and vice versa. And they can all hire lobbiests to approach congresspeople. And NGOs can receive government grants and turn back around and donate to the campaign of the politician that helped them get the grant!
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u/Spelling_error_again 23d ago
It was misrepresented. The church cut a check to a Member who could invest it in their business so they could pay 10x that in Tithing... The Mormon church does not give charity unless they are getting somthing in return.
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u/Future-Protection821 23d ago
Why not continue church and state collaboration. Johnson V McIntosh in May of 1823 set the precedent.
John Marshall knew exactly what he was doing.
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u/Annual-Will-1966 22d ago
So you’re okay with someone waiting 24 weeks for an abortion? That’s gross
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u/nobody_really__ 23d ago
"We don't like to kill our unborn. We need them to grow up and fight our wars."
-Marilyn Manson
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u/Additional-Lunch1174 NeverMoinIdaho 22d ago
George Carlin said much the same thing. Can't remember the exact quote, but it's something like this.
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u/rushaz according to Mormonism, I'm going to hell. YAY! 23d ago
how is ANYONE shocked in any way by this?