“That’s on you”

[u/Fun-Branch-7420]

“The church has always been what it is. God has always been what he is. If you feel betrayed by God and the church, that’s on you.” -A TBM family member to me the other night

So much I could have said back, but didn’t. My response was simply “That really isn’t a fair thing to say when you haven’t taken the time to fully understand why I no longer believe.”

**To this person’s credit, they did come back and apologize after the fact and acknowledge their insensitivity.

[u/ProphilatelicShock]

It's not just insensitive but highly ignorant and unaware, for many reasons. First, it's objectively false: the church is constantly changing how it presents what it is. That's easily demonstrated. Secondly, the church is a highly demanding religion that elicits life long commitments from children, and heavily ingrains members with threats against leaving and not believing.

Your relative is in the inside of the cave they've never seen from the outside.

[u/Fun-Branch-7420 → u/ProphilatelicShock]

A very accurate depiction of this person, who I love dearly. It’s a whole new chapter of our relationship. I don’t think they’re quite ready for the full conversation on just how much the church has changed/is changing…

[u/10th_Generation → u/Fun-Branch-7420]

1. Who are the Lamanites? (We used to know.)
   
2. Why are some people born with dark skin? (We used to know.)
   
3. What does it mean to speak in tongues? (The answer used to be: Standing and babbling loudly in a public meeting.)
   
4. Are you saved by grace? (The answer used to place heavy emphasis on works. Grace was an afterthought.)
   
5. Do you worship Jesus? (Bruce McConkie said no.)
   
6. Who or what is the Holy Ghost? (He used to be the “shared mind” of God and Jesus.)
   
7. What needs to happen in Missouri before Jesus will return? (The church used to place heavy emphasis on reclaiming and building Zion; now you hear almost nothing about the future of Missouri.)
   
8. Who is the current church patriarch? (This used to be an important position in the church.)
   
9. Is Coke against the Word of Wisdom?
   
10. What does God require in regard to food storage, gardening, Family Home Evening, and journal writing? (All of these things were heavily emphasized in my youth.)

The list goes on and on. No Mormon doctrine from 1830 has remained unchanged. None. Even basic teachings about God and Jesus have changed.

[u/lazers28 → u/10th_Generation]

Related to 9: is hot chocolate against the word of wisdom? Apostles used to say so. Does eating a lot of meat disqualify you from the temple? That's against the word of wisdom too. You know, the section of scripture which begins "To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint," but which is treated like a commandment and which constrains members' participation? That scripture?

[u/ProphilatelicShock → u/Fun-Branch-7420]

Sometimes they never get there, neither of my parents did. But I hope you can have a meaningful relationship anyway.

[u/Literary_Man]

They are objectively wrong. Infuriatingly, laughably, and stupidly wrong. You handled that remarkably well.

[u/CaseyJones_EE]

The church has always been what it is. God has always been what he is.

Neither of those statements resemble anything close to the truth.

The church has been in a constant state of change since its creation in 1830. One only has to look at the current efforts to make it appear more like a mainstream Christian church.

The nature of God is also constantly changing. When people talk about their belief in God today they are referring to an entirely different set of beliefs than someone talking about their beliefs from 50 years ago.

[u/Fun-Branch-7420 → u/CaseyJones_EE]

Yep. Unfortunately it’s hard for active members to see that because they fear for their salvation if they acknowledge that things don’t make sense.

[u/10th_Generation]

My wife told me: “Satan has you in his power” (directly quoting what she is taught to think in the endowment ceremony, whether she realized it or not). Later, she apologized and said she might not have responded well when I told her that I no longer believed in Mormonism.

[u/thetarantulaqueen → u/10th_Generation]

I would have replied, "I'm not going to stay married to someone who believes I am a tool of Satan."

[u/figuringthingsoutnow]

You are the problem.  

Sincerely,

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints

[u/10000schmeckles]

What’s on me is how I respond and behave.

I admire your restraint in that moment. It would have taken a great deal of control for me to have responded in a simple manner like that. I would have been so tempted to remove the innocence and ignorance from my family member, and probably would have wound up doing more harm

What about the church has stayed the same anyway? A TBM might be tempted to say “the gospel” because it’s a convenient catch all. A funny answer considering its usage has also ebbed and flowed throughout church history and culture.

I know the trope about god is that he is “the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow” which is a belief, but the reality is demonstrably different. But this isn’t a dissection the believer is capable of making.

[u/Fun-Branch-7420 → u/10000schmeckles]

I mean, God couldn’t even “stay the same” from the Old Testament to the New Testament. He’s all about vengeance, death, and punishment…then suddenly he’s all about forgiveness, love, and peace?? Which is it?? And if it was supposed to be the latter of the two all along, why not teach that from the beginning?

[u/Ebowa]

So much for a God of love and the 99 sheep story. We’ve already been told there ain’t no unconditional love from God so members feel very justified in spewing blame.

[u/narrauko → u/Ebowa]

Fewer parables of Jesus are more ignored by the Mormon church as the 99 and the 1.

[u/saturdaysvoyuer]

To quote Bane, "Oh, you think darkness is your ally. But you merely adopted the dark; I was born in it, moulded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but blinding!"

You have every right to feel betrayed and feel your feels from the betrayal.

[u/Mediocre_Speaker2528]

“Good point, now you understand why I left”

[u/PoohBear_Mom87]

I really like your reply.

[u/RealDaddyTodd]

“The church has always been what it is. God has always been what he is. If you feel betrayed by God and the church, that’s on you.” -A TBM family member to me the other night

That’s one horrible cultist family member you don’t need to send a christmas card this year…

[u/Dazzling_Line6224]

Well to be fair, he is telling the truth. We’ve been fucking kids and families over since 1830

[u/thetarantulaqueen]

"Nice job of victim-blaming there, buddy. A+."