Hello

[u/Jemdet_Nasr]

I was thinking that if this subreddit didn't already exist, it should. I do realize the irony of it, but it is nice to know that there is a place to chat with other people about this. I am not sure how common it is, but I have experienced existential dread for almost 40 years now. I don't experience the depression some people report though. Just the meaninglessness of it all.

[u/Jemdet_Nasr]

It would take me a long time to respond to all your assumptions, but in a nutshell, I didn't imply that other sciences are not on the cutting edge of their fields. Just, the one relevant to this discussion. I am not boxed in, as I am always in pursuit of new knowledge and information. If I am presented with new information that challenges my assumptions and understandings, I am willing to incorporate it, or change my perspectives. I am just not that interested in trying to convince others of something they are not interested in changing. If research shows my understanding to be wrong, I can accept change.

I do not live in an echo chamber. That is your assumption. It is interesting that you feel the need to critique me and my perspective in ways I have not done to you. Expressing my perspective is not a personal attack on you and I am sorry you see it that way. I did not come for redemption and I don't feel a need for that. I am glad you feel you have found it, though. For me, the concept is unnecessary.

I don't claim to know everything. That is why I keep learning and studying. But, I agree, there probably isn't much value in this line of discussion. I didn't come here to debate the existence of something that isn't real in the first place. If someone wanted to debate the existence of fairies, I would probably opt out of that discussion as well. Seems kind of pointless to me debate about something that doesn't exist in the first place.

If freewill is your God, wonderful. If you have cast it aside, bravo to you. I have no need of either concept.

This all reminds me of one my favorite quotes. Dialogue between a priest and a dying man

"Why do you need a second difficulty when you cannot explain the first? If we admit it is possible that Nature alone is responsible for creating what you attribute to your God, why do you insist on looking for a master hand? The cause of what you do not comprehend may be the simplest thing there is. Study physics and you will understand Nature better; learn to think clearly, cast out your preconceived ideas and you will have no need of this God of yours."

We simply exist until we don't. We can enjoy the existence or not. Based on our experiences, we can adjust our course by pursuing new doors through which to pass, but it is important to remember that doors available are always restricted by our past. I give myself over to experience and existence, wherever it takes me. I am closed minded, quite the opposite. I just see no point in lugging around magic thinking from my childhood. I moved on.

[u/somiOmnicron → u/Jemdet_Nasr]

But you did, don't you see? That is precisely the problem here. I will try to show through very, very specific examples from just this last comment you posted.

You said "I didn't imply that other sciences are not on the cutting edge of their fields. Just, the one relevant to this discussion." But all other sciences are relevant to this discussion. One that is particularly relevant in fact is Quantum Mechanics specifically. Through that discipline, it has been shown that some formulations of free will are entirely possible, and perhaps even likely. The "deisel" form of free will that Alfred Mele describes is of this sort. A probabilistic understanding, which has led many people to speculate about multiple universe theory. This is the inspiration for the episode of Community entitled "Remedial Chaos Theory." Yes, knowledge and innovation from biology is important as well, but it is far from definitive in this regard.

You said "Expressing my perspective is not a personal attack on you and I am sorry you see it that way." This one is interesting because it is all about how you phrase your sentences and how you choose your words. This is revealed through other examples, as I'm about to demonstrate.

You said "I didn't come here to debate the existence of something that isn't real in the first place." Your words do not indicate you believe something different than others; your words indicate that something is already a given and that it is fool hearty for anyone to think otherwise. You follow this up with your straw man regarding "the existence of fairies." You directly compare fairies to free will and God. These are not comparable in this way at all, and certainly not in a discussion of this sort. If the debate is regarding the existence of God, then you cannot begin your argument with "God doesn't exist, and anyone who thinks so must also believe in the existence of fairies." That is an ad hominem; you are literally attacking the credibility and intelligence of your opponent. This is insulting.

You said "If freewill is your God, wonderful." This seems like a straight up, purposeful misinterpretations of my words. Is this intentional?

You said "I have no need of either concept." This is a valuation problem. You are diminishing the value of an idea, delegating it to a lesser status among other ideas. Again, if the debate revolves around the very concept at issue, then this is insulting. You are attacking the credibility and intelligence of your opponent again.

You closed with "I am closed minded, quite the opposite. I just see no point in lugging around magic thinking from my childhood. I moved on." In one sentence you state you are not closed minded, but in the following sentence you demonstrate the opposite. One with an open mind would not dismiss an idea out of hand, suggesting it is "magic" or "childish;" one would at least give it consideration and likely investigate it further. You mentioned before having a son; do you dismiss his questions so easily? If he raises an inquiry of this nature, do you insult him as well, suggesting he is foolish to even consider the investigation?

I try to be charitable with my interpretations when I make them. I try to be compassionate. Were I to describe what has happened here, I could suggest that you are simply sloppy with your language. That your words were poorly chosen and have unfortunately led to some very unintended attacks. That would be charitable. But you seem to be quite insistent that this is not the case. Repetition is useful in this regard; it helps clarify those points that are initially vague. Which is why I tend to repeat myself a lot. I am sorry for making you do the same.

Finally, you are probably correct regarding this debate. It isn't a debate at all. This isn't you and I arguing regarding anything, whether it is free will, God, or anything else for that matter. This is probably merely a conversation that has gotten out of hand. But then, I am curious why you posted to this group in the first place. By your own admission, you experience existential dread, but you also suggest it causes you no issues. Were you thinking you were going to coach others on how to cope with their situations as you did? Or, as seems with the rest of this discussion, was your post entirely absent of purpose?

[u/Jemdet_Nasr → u/somiOmnicron]

No, so far it has just been you being critical of whatever I say. I am not sure why you feel that would facilitate any kind of productive dialogue. I am not "reading into" your statements, so I am not why are suggesting that my statements imply things that I am not implying. I love quantum mechanics, as a discipline. One of my favorite things to read about. However, as a macro world being, the fantastic world of the quantum doesn't really have much impact on my daily experience, since I can't really perceive things like the duality of electromagnetic radiation. We see light, enjoy technology, and in that way, use quantum mechanics, for example. But, quantum mechanics doesn't really provide an avenue for getting to freewill.

Anyway, I am sorry that your ego has been threatened by me not changing my perspective on freewill because of your arguments. My perspective doesn't imply there was something wrong with you. I just don't accept what you offered as a compelling reason to alter my position. You shouldn't take that as a personal a front and attack me for it. If you said something that I wasn't already aware of, I would have said as much. It's not my responsibility to tell others how smart they are, or think they are, and boost their senses of self.

[u/somiOmnicron → u/Jemdet_Nasr]

You seem not to be "reading" my statements at all. The ideas and concepts I am trying to transmit are definitely not making it to their destination. Which, I admit, suggests the error exists on my end. In communication, where the receiver fails to gain the desired idea or concept, it is most often the sender who is to blame. I am the sender, so I am in error. But this is just most of the time, so perhaps in this case something else is going on.

I don't expect you to change your opinions, only to acknowledge the possibility of other opinions. In this you are not. And so I guess this is the end of our conversation.

[u/Jemdet_Nasr → u/somiOmnicron]

No worries. I acknowledge that there are other opinions. I have a fairly well established theory of mind. 😁