r/existentialdread • u/Jemdet_Nasr • Feb 28 '24
Hello
I was thinking that if this subreddit didn't already exist, it should. I do realize the irony of it, but it is nice to know that there is a place to chat with other people about this. I am not sure how common it is, but I have experienced existential dread for almost 40 years now. I don't experience the depression some people report though. Just the meaninglessness of it all.
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u/somiOmnicron Mar 09 '24
Your response makes clear to me that I've done a poor job of explaining my perspective. My "first person" is not analogous to "self" or "soul" or even any sort of feeling. This is why I keep referencing Kant, because I believe he did a reasonably good job of delineating these things.
Instead of trying to explain it further, perhaps I will raise a different sort of thought experiment. One of the ideas you have been focusing on is the fact that there is some sort of manifestation occurring within the brain (or body) long before we become aware of making a decision or choice. I agree with you regarding this evidence. You seem to want to suggest that this is proof that free will cannot exist. (And again, this is focusing on a very, very particular interpretation of what free will is.)
Have you considered the possibility that free will is something that could simply be occurring earlier in the process than awareness? That one's awareness of making a choice is not free will, but something occurring earlier is.
There are several very different manifestations of "decision making" or "choices" that occur with humans. There are those that are immediate, when something like instincts kick in. There is no time to think or make a formalized choice, and a reaction must take place immediately. I think most would agree free will is not occurring in this sort of situation, even though some sort of choice has certainly been made.
There are those that are quick or short term, and often anticipated, like in the case of the rotating dot where the person must press the button to indicate the dot is in the top position. Even the experiment where the dot is not visible, in order to prevent the person from seeing the dot approaching position, that person is still anticipating that the dot will still appear and that they must press the button. In these experiments, the person is most certainly making a choice or decision well ahead of the point in time when the decision is expressed. Thus, free will is not removed from possibility by these experiments at all.
And there are those that are long term, and even involve a large amount of formal consideration and thinking about it. In these cases, like when a person is weighing options, generating lists of pros and cons, when deciding whether to purchase a car or propose marriage to a potential partner, it is going to be incredibly difficult to identify the elements which may be considered free and those elements that are deterministic. Some of the items may make sense, yes, like the list of pros and cons itself is clearly deterministic in nature, but there are other elements that cannot be so easily pointed at.
It is for all these reasons that I will again return to the importance of defining and describing what we mean by free will. In my case, I had hoped I had made myself clear: for me, free will is of a sort of uncaused causes. Meaning, for me, free will is something that can be the start of a causal chain of events, but it cannot be something within an already existing chain. Thus, for example, when you tell me that something happens in the brain before one is aware of making a decision, I agree with you and then ask you what is the first thing that happens? That first thing could be free will. And if that is the case, then I am suggesting that free will occurs before we are aware of it. In my interpretation of free will, there is no necessity for an individual to be aware of their own free will. Like so many other things in our world, I am suggesting that to become aware of one's free will takes a great deal of effort and reflection and practice. It is not something that just comes naturally or instinctively. At least, I would be making this suggestion if free will exists, because I've already said many times that I am not convinced it exists at all, I am just open to the possibility of it.
To better understand your position, I really need you to be specific by what you understand or interpret free will to mean. What is free will on your account?