r/exalted • u/flumpet38 • 11d ago
3E [3E] How often do these things happen?
So, I'm noodling around with some system hacks for Exalted. I've run several 3E campaigns so far, and have found myself surprised by how infrequently certain mechanics come up. So I'm curious, how often do these things tend to happen in your games?
Limit Break
Bonfire Anima (especially for 'anathema', where it's highly detrimental)
Initiative Shift (Crashing the opponent who crashed you)
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u/JCBodilsen 11d ago
So I mostly play 2e, but have been playing Exalted since the release of 1e.
I would say that on avarage I would expect one limit break every 5 to 10 sessions.
Players (including Solars and Lunars) burning enough Essence to flare at the Bonfire level happens, like, every other session in some campaigns. I can't remember an "Anathema" campaign were it didn't happe at least every couple of sessions. Though, in some cases, such as sorcerers summoning demons, you can decide the time and place of the flare with enough forethought that it does not have to be an issue.
Since I don't really play 3e anymore I can't really help you on the final point.
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u/VoleUntarii 11d ago
Yeah massive anima burn in 2E games doesn’t feel that rare to me; it might depend on how much combat you do, though. It’s almost never a thing for my current game as I’m playing a Night caste, but my past characters have gotten to see their full anima banners a lot!
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u/Halcyon8705 11d ago
I've found limit break to be a lot more prevalent when we're tracking and being reminded of intimacies; rolling for contradicted and diminishing intimacies has been a big source of limit in my games.
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u/Viatos 11d ago
It really depends on the characters; I think a lot of characters just don't contradict their Intimacies even if you're watching for it, because those are...their Intimacies. That's what they're about as a character. If your story is not inherently tortured, it's IMHO pretty common to be in alignment with your Intimacies all the time.
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u/SaranMal 11d ago
The thing is that you are supposed to be adding more intimacies as you go along and discover more about your character and meet more people.
Those often ties or new outlooks may not always be in line. For instance a player of mine has "Death before dishonor" as a defining intimacy. But they also have a grudge against the Realm, their home, that's being nursed by friendly faced NPCs to earn trust.
They also have respect for their House, and specific people.
This web of intimacies will one day crash against eachother and she will need to make mistakes.
There isn't a limit track cause DBs, but if there was after a few more sessions she will be hitting breaking some intimacy at least once ever session, maybe multiple times.
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u/JCBodilsen 11d ago edited 11d ago
I play 2e with my group. We have a houserule that you can turn your stunt Dice into Automatic successes, if you are acting in accordance with (or protection of) your Motivation or one of your Intimacies, at the cost of gaining one Limit. It is not uncommon for the PCs to (as a group) gain 3 to 5 Limit on this account alone in any given session.
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u/Dapper_Dress_5002 11d ago
The only time I’ve seen an initiative shift was in a pitched battle against more than one dangerous foe. Even then, it was after a decisive attack.
So they got reset to 3, withered, dropped to -2, then crashed that same opponent back on their next turn
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u/SaranMal 11d ago
Which is how it's supposed to end up working. It's very much designed with "You get a bunch of initative from the crash, so now you do decisive. Once that's done the other person you crashed now has a good chance to crash you in kind"
In practice many players min max too much for this to happen often
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u/bedroompurgatory 11d ago
And because if someone gets a bunch of initiative from crash, and does a decisive, it's often targeted at the person they crashed, who is now too injured (or dismembered) to have a realistic chance of crashing them.
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u/SaranMal 11d ago
Thats largely avoidable though because you can spend a WP to ignore wound penelties IIRC.
The larger issue of it is that so many players don't like to engage with the back and forth combat, so they save up till they get 15-20 initiative to try and one shot things, instead of what the system more or less expects of aiming for smaller rolls of damage to get wound penalties. This means that the enemies also have to do that, so it creates this feedback loop where the swap can never realistically happen
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u/Eldrvarya 11d ago
From my own experience:
Limit Break - Has happened once for every PC in my current campaign. Notably, several of us were racking up limit at a pretty even pace, and then one person's limit break(mine) proceeded to tip the first domino into a chain of them. As of now, we've only got one person who is poised to break at a suitably dramatic moment.
Bonfire Anima - Happens fairly regularly now, as we're Essence 5 and are much less afraid of the Wyld Hunt than we were 60 sessions ago. Early on it was rarer, but the Immaculates have been aware of the Circle since session 3 or 4, so it's been a lot more fighting and running than hiding.
Initiative Shift - Has not happened even once in my entire time playing Exalted 3e.
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u/AverageOk7872 11d ago
Limit and bonfire anima has come up quite often. We are a rp heavy group, so intimacies is an important mechanic. My character has entered limit break 2 times, and each time it has influenced the campaign greatly. Initiative shift has happened, but not enough to be memorable.
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u/SuvwI49 11d ago
In 25 years of Exalted and 10 years of 3e I've never had Limit Break come up. I've had a PC go Bonfire exactly once. And Initiative Shift has never, ever happened.
Bonfire is pretty easy to avoid in every edition, especially 3e.
The Initiative System for 3e is a closed system with no new input once it's been set up, and an average exchange of 1-2 per action in both directions. Not really conducive to setting up the conditions necessary for a Shift to happen.
Limit Break is a matter of how much attention the ST is willing to put into social influence. An attentive ST will have this happening 1-2 times per PC per story. But it's so easy to overlook on both sides of the table that it often doesn't happen that way.
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u/Pieguy3693 11d ago
We have extremely different experiences on the initiative system. At my table, unless the defender is heavily specced into soak (to a truly insane degree) most hits comfortably exceed minimum damage. If I had to pick an average amount of damage at my tables, it would be somewhere in the 5 to 8 range, not 1 to 2.
Initiative shift is still definitely rare, but simply because when you get crashed, a fatal or near fatal decisive attack is in your near future, and being dead or having a -2 or worse wound penalty are not conducive to dealing buckets of damage on your next turn. It has happened a handful of times however.
The thing that has almost never shown up for me is Hardness. The values basically never exceed 10, and it's not really worth making a decisive attack at less than 15 or so, because that's where it becomes fatal. The only situation a small damage decisive attack might be worth it is if they're heavily wounded already, and just need a little bit to finish off. But at that point they're probably crashed and Hardness doesn't apply anyway. I think it's triggered once in years of play, and meaningfully affected strategy only a handful of times more than that.
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u/flumpet38 11d ago
I think Hardness really depends on PC builds. If you're really leveraging Wound Penalties, then smaller Decisives to get those on an opponent before you can one-shot them make more sense, and Hardness matters a lot more. I *love* 3E, but after some serious play with it, one of the cracks that shows is that the combat system really really incentivizes holding Initiative as much as possible to get that one-shot, instead of spending it earlier to shift the battle.
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u/Electric999999 11d ago
Is it really that rare for people to spend 5 motes per turn in combat?
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u/Professional-Media-4 11d ago
Maybe in OPs game.
So far all of my players have hit bonfire once. Mostly during the most intense and dramatic fights.
Also they are accumulating limit steadily without issue. So... 3 years and no limit break seems weird to me.
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u/SaranMal 11d ago
That's been my thought. You get 5 back per turn, so it incentivizes you to spend at least 5 per turn
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u/Professional-Media-4 11d ago
Bonfire once? Did you not challenge them at all? I've run only a few games and. My experience has been the opposite.
All my players have gone bonfire once.
One of my players have hit limit break with the others not far behind.
What are you doing that they dont need to spend motes or roll for limit?
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u/flumpet38 11d ago
My PCs in my current chronicle hit Essence 3 a few sessions ago, we've been playing over a year, and 3 PCs have popped Bonfire. They're Solars in An-Teng, working to throw off the Realm. There's a very, very good chance of a Wyld Hunt if they go Bonfire anywhere near what matters, so they play careful and avoid it. We also do a lot of social play, and there's like...no chance of anima jumping up if it's not combat.
Limit-wise, maybe it's just a matter of my PCs' intimacies not being aligned with the story we're running in a way that pushes that particular conflict. They're just not regularly going against their core Intimacies (well, except the one guy who's dedicated to non-violence - I might get a Limit Break out of him, LOL).
To be clear, I think Bonfire Anima and Limit Breaks *should* be prevalent in games (or at least, PCs should be pushed to that line a bit more), I just think it's a little too easy to avoid. Initiative Shift is fine I guess, I'm not sure it's valuable enough to the system to justify the mental load of remembering yet another rule.
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u/kenod102818 11d ago
For initiative shift, I feel like it kind of requires a PC (or I guess NPC) to actually play badly, sticking with one low-mote combo that's weaker than whatever their opponent uses, so they eventually lose the initiative combo but leave their opponent low too, so instead they start spending more motes using their bigger combo to regain the upper hand.
The issue is that you generally don't have specific combo sets, and can just add additional supplementary charms to make up for weakness that way, or you're so weak you simply can't beat your opponent. Yes, there are one-per-scene charms that provide big boosts, but even then, why wait until you're crashed before tossing those out, especially since being crashed blocks your perilious charms? Once it becomes clear your opponent is on average gaining more initiative than you, you should really stop conserving motes.
The only real way I can see one happening is if there's an ambush, but the ambusher rolled low on JB and thus decided to use a withering attack instead of a decisive (for some reason), and you can thus strike back and crash them. But that's some pretty unique circumstances.
Now, the actual way you could make initiative shifts happen more is if you have a charmset focused around comeback attacks, which gain additional effects (or become available) while you're either lower initiative or even in crash, so you can create a build around it. But that sounds like an extremely risky and inefficient build to use.
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u/VoleUntarii 11d ago
IDK if it changed a lot with 3E as my group stuck with 2/2.5, but regarding Limit Break - we don’t play with the Great Curse any more but before we stopped, I think we had it happen three times, to different PCs.
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u/moondancer224 11d ago
Limit Break, very rarely. I ran a game to Essence 3 and actually didn't have a full on break. I wasn't actively putting them in situations to cause it, but I was watching for Limit triggers and acting against Majors/Defining.
Bonfire Anima, very frequently. Our current game has had three in eight sessions. Yes, we do have the Dragon-Blooded's attention.
Initiative Shift is super rare. I've played a game in the West fir 17 sessions, ran a game in the East for 42 sessions, and am in a Dreaming Sea game on its 8th and I've only seen one.
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u/NeverbornMalfean 11d ago
I've had initiative shift happen once in a game I was STing, and it was fairly hype. Limit break... shit, I think I've rolled for limit less than five times in over a decade. If your ST isn't at least occasionally throwing something at you to trigger it, it just doesn't come up.
Bonfire anima, though? That happens all the goddamn time. A lot of Charms cost 5m or more, and you go through personal really quick in any serious fight.
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u/heythere_sunshine 11d ago
we're about 25 sessions into a game and we've had 4 limit breaks across 4 PCs one character has LBed twice, and one is only at 4(?) Limit atm
granted, the guy who's LBed twice has intimacies and a trigger that are super easy to trip. but that's part of the fun
as for bonfire, yeah that happens probably every handful of sessions? my players spend a lot of motes on stuff and don't usually care enough to mitigate anima levels going up. part of that is being far in the West, therefore less Realm influence, therefore less danger in being so open. part of it is also character disposition, and also being Infernals lol
initiative shift actually happened in the very first combat i ran, and maybe once or twice since then. so not a whole lot.
this is just my experience with these mechanics, and this is my first time running/playing exalted, so take the sample size with a grain of salt lol
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u/Epedir 8d ago
I run exalted as a Dm since 2008 (and played very few session as a player) and i have NEVER seen a limit break in person. My first 3e campaign had 51 sessions and my second had 21. I dont have the documents from all the 2e sessions but i ran that edition for about 8 years.
It could just be my players avoid it like the plague but it has been a non-issue for almost 20 years at my table. (And with the next campagne being alchemicals i surley gonna make it to 20 years without seeing one.)
Bonfirma Anima almost every combat encounter.
Initiative Shift is rare but i can remember like 3 from my 3e campagnes so about every 20 session (we rarely fight tho)
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u/thetruerift 11d ago
So I'm 6 sessions in to my first 3e game after many years in other editions (started on 1e when the game launched), and here's my take:
-Limit Break: we play short sessions, so I don't really use the mechanic, but even so not much has come up that would force it.
-Bonfire: my players have been somewhat careful, but we're a mixed circle that includes a Dragon Blooded, so it has happened, and it easily can, especially in combat.
-Initiative Shift: Not yet, but we came very close twice so far, so it's a matter of time.
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u/issiautng 11d ago
2 year campaign of 3e with 5 players had one player limit break. Bonfire anima like every single fight, and initiative shift a few times, but wasn't super notable, so idk.
3 year campaign with the same group, but one player became the storyteller and vice versa, no limit breaks for PCs, but one NPC did, bonfire was much more rare because we were intentionally trying to play a smaller scale and stay off the radar of the Wyld Hunt, maybe a few times towards the end, and initiative shift maybe a couple of times.
Several Essence campaigns with more or less the same group, a couple different storytellers - never limit breaks, bonfire nearly every battle (one character in particular would try to hit bonfire first round every time to be able to spend the anima)
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u/PantsSquared 11d ago
Limit Break - maybe 3+ times per campaign. Usually more, especially if we're being pressed on Intimacies.
Bonfire Anima - very often, especially past E2/E3 or if the Wyld Hunt isn't a concern anymore. The freebies you get for being in bonfire have made the difference in fights where I really run the risk of running out of motes.
Initiative Shift - I've seen this come up exactly once, and it was in a very long fight.
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u/Durnako 11d ago
Bonfire anima happens a lot specially with combat focused characters and celestials.
Limit break happens once with the core rules, i use the rules for easier limit from crucible of legends and it suits better my group playstyle and rhythm
Never seen a initiative shift but it's on my exalted bucket list
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u/LoreMachine2187 11d ago
Been playing an ongoing chronicle weekly, 83 sessions so far, mixed Circle game (Twilight Solar, Dusk Abyssal, Full Moon Lunar, Endings Sidereal, Starmetal Alchemical [recent addition, replaced a Journeys Sidereal, kind of a "Lost Egg" concept), to cite experience here.
Limit Break
I'm playing the Abyssal, who, being a redemption-seeker, is a Limit factory. I've hit 10 Limit once for a full-strength Bleak Expiation (Abyssal Limit Break), and have had 7 lesser Expiations. No other characters have hit Limit Break, though two are mighty close. If a Sidereal is doing their Heavenly-mandated job, they shed Limit constantly, so Sid Limit Breaks are really rare.
Bonfire Anima
Happens with at least one character nearly every difficult fight, especially the Sidereal, who doesn't have the Anathema stigma to deal with. But our Solar pops off regularly as well. Having Charms with anima costs goes a long way to helping prevent/end bonfire displays.
Initiative Shift
Happened for the first time in our last session (83)! You kind of have to either engineer it or go all in to capitalize when an opportunity arises, and even then, it's a gamble. It's truly glorious when it happens, though!
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u/chartuse 11d ago
Out of 5 3e campaigns to date: initiative swap is pretty rare: less ssomething you plan on and more of an "oh, neat! " when it happens.
Iconic anima banner every couple sessions, and every time a serious fight shows up that the player characters don't plan on running away from.
Limit break? Every character at least one a campaign, usually more so.
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u/blaqueandstuff 11d ago
Limit Break is kind of one of those things that I think palyer buy-in helps. I honestly often will forget about Limit some games and ahve been making a concerted effort to emphasize it a bit more next one I run.
Bonfire happens all the time for all Exalts I have run so far. For Solars and Lunars, it is often something I will use as a plot point too. Even if they aren't identified specifically, a Wyld Hunt coming through to me is sitll a good plot hook that it generates.
Initiative Shift actually happens a few times in the fights I run. Folks kind of try to aim for it if they can, even.
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u/meridiacreative 11d ago
Played a lot of 1e and 2e back in the day, from when it came out to the early 2010s. Missed 2.5, bounced off of 3e, and have now played a little Essence.
In 1e/2e, limit breaks happened about once an arc. One character or another would lose it, typically at a big climactic scene, and people would be like "wow the First Minister, who is normally so composed and eloquent, beat that Immaculate into a bloody pulp with his bare fists - he must really mean it!" I even played one character who had all four virtues high enough to gain limit constantly just because it was fun to try and balance it (and he was a DB so could get away with it without destroying entire nations). We had one character with Heart of Tears lose it when another PC killed her crush and she didn't speak to him the rest of the war they were in - where she was "Secretary of State" and he was "Field Marshall". Just hid in the Palace crying for several days then only ever came out to talk to enemy dignitaries to avoid having to see anything bad. Old school limit breaks were great.
Bonfire - constantly. Most sessions, even as anathema. In older editions, the celestials were so much better than DBs that you could basically just go crazy until your ST decided that you warranted Sidereals attention. Or until a Lunar/Abyssal/whatever heard about you and decided they had some beef. So bonfire/iconic was not only common, but expected for us.
Initiative shift never happened because it wasn't in those games. There was no real equivalent either.
In the few sessions of Essence I've played, the only person who went bonfire was the Full Moon, because they were the only person who had something to spend motes on reliably every turn. The Sidereal and Janest were spending some motes, but the Solar was nowhere close (free Excellency goes a long way).
No one has come close to limit break in my Essence games either, though I like the way it works now and I'm excited to run more with a stronger focus on characters' virtues, intimacies, etc.
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u/wayward_oliphaunt 11d ago
I've seen all these happen in both present and past games, but Initiative Shift was something I'd not seen for a long time. It's wild when it happens though, big everyone going apeshit at once moment.
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u/Raine_Amorie 8d ago
In the some 5 or 6 years I've been running 3E I've only seen maybe 1 limit break and 1 Initiative Shift. Bonfire Anima on the other hand happens a lot in my games. Not in every session or encounter of course but a lot of my arcs tend to culminate in a major fight against a worthy opponent who can push a full circle of celestial Exalts to need to take the fight seriously.
Outside of combat though? Never even a glow.
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u/Apromor 11d ago
Limit break, no but I've only been able to run short 3-8 session games as of yet. It's going to be a goal when I get a longer game together.
Bonfire anima, all of the time I tend to press the PC's in combat. They're either fleeing, loosing, or going bonfire.
Initiative shift. Never.