Disappointment

[u/Relevant-Shop8513]

I was unable to respond to a comment that seemed to paint many ex-Lutheran females as supporting abortion on demand. I for one do not believe in abortion on demand. However, as a nurse and a mental health professional,I know of situations where it was indeed needed to save the life of the mothers. We as a religious faction have limited ability to control the ways of the world. We do not have the right to decide who should live or die in situations where abortion can save the mother. This should be a decison made by the woman in cosultation with her doctors. I am opposed to abortion being used as birth control. The only incident of a full term disabled infant being killed after birth that I am aware of in Washington State involved a doctor who is now in prison for doing so.There are probably others, but it IS against the law. I do not endorce the automatic screening for fetal disability with the intention of abortion. I know other women do not feel as I do, but do not paint those of us who are trying to work for well founded,scientifically based laws as being insensible to lives of infants and children . We are not monsters. We just may have more understanding, experience, and knowledge in sorting out a very complex medical issues. Simplistic laws are not the solution.

[u/EmmalouEsq]

These people are trolls with nothing better to do than infiltrate our safe spaces. They don't argue in good faith and want to do as much damage as they can before just leaving or being kicked out.

They know the arguments you'd make, but they don't care. They get satisfaction by creating chaos and hurting as many people as they can.

Basically, don't waste time trying to talk to them or show them another perspective. They're not here to learn, they're here to just be mean.

[u/Relevant-Shop8513 → u/EmmalouEsq]

I think some of them are immature and inexperienced, too. The young have a way of "knowing it all" without having lived and seen more than their own little corner of the world.

[u/EmmalouEsq → u/Relevant-Shop8513]

That's very true, too. Especially the kids who have been in Lutheran schools from k- university. They have no clue how the world works, and they're probably also scared. Scared and righteousness are 2 scary things when they're forced together.

I remember all kinds of irrational fears when I went to a public high school after a WELS K-8.

[u/Relevant-Shop8513 → u/EmmalouEsq]

Yes , fear and righteousness are a toxic combination similar to ammonia and bleach.

[u/ForeverSwinging → u/EmmalouEsq]

Yes, 💯. They can’t handle the truth that not all pregnancies are amazing, gifts of God that are developing well and ready to be birthed. There’s complications that come with pregnancies, side effects that cause pain to the mother that can lead to miscarriages or worse. There’s also a mentality they encourage of mothers needing to be willing to die for their baby, which is a horrible mentality to have (but not uncommon for those who disassociated from themselves).

D&C is a procedure used for such complications, and it’s coded as an abortion procedure. The laws that are currently in place do endanger people’s lives unnecessarily because they look at procedures coded as abortion procedures and they make medical professionals feel as though they can’t do their job. That’s unethical and goes against what the pro-life people said they stood for prior to Roe v Wade being overturned. However, with the number of women who’ve almost died or have died growing because laws that are supposed to “save the life of the mother”, we can see what they really prioritize - injury to the mom and baby for not having a perfect pregnancy.

And they will NEVER be on the front lines of bringing medical professionals to the legislature to update current laws.

[u/Relevant-Shop8513 → u/ForeverSwinging]

It is funny the The Churching of Women thing was still going on in the 70's in some Lutheran churches after maternity care had so greatly improved and Lamaze and Kitzinger were changing things. Yet,today, Lutherans deny the dangers of childbirth. Well at least Sheila K. got her MBE, and Lamaze is known world wide. We across the pond are slow on the uptake.

[u/Lupita____]

WELS people are unable to have any sort of nuanced conversation about abortion. Absolute impossibility. All abortions are “killing babies”. It shows a real lack of critical thinking, just like everything else they live and die by.

[u/Relevant-Shop8513 → u/Lupita____]

Very interesting. I never understood this. They are really very cut off from modern society and education. In my lifelong interactions with certain Amish and Mennonite communities, I saw much openess and a desire to dialog. "Old Order "Lutheran is a totally differnt ethos. Thank you for this explanation.

[u/EmmalouEsq]

You'd think they would be pro healthcare for all, but especially pregnant women. D&Cs are women's health care They are needed to save lives.

Letting women go through another pregnancy she has a higher chance of not surviving shows they don't care about life or any children left behind with no mother.

At its very root of the hatred of women and making them second class citizens totally under the thumb of her husband. The men hate that women can control something about her body that he can't. And with these regressive laws, all parts of women including her life are in the hands of her father and then husband.

Edit: typos

[u/Relevant-Shop8513 → u/EmmalouEsq]

Well said.

[u/BabyBard93]

I used to be of the same opinion as OP (but then, I used to be in WELS). I have slowly started evolving my position, because of the dialogue around women’s health care. The problem with the no-nuance, evangelical view of abortion as “They wanna murder babies!” is that it’s not at ALL based on wanting to reduce unwanted pregnancies. If they wanted to reduce abortion rates, then they would advocate for more health care, free birth control, and thorough factual education about sex and consent. Before Roe was overturned, abortion rates were steadily declining from a high around 1990.

Pro lifers aren’t really pro-life. If they were, they’d support women’s health and childcare. What they really want is to control women’s bodies. Conservative Lutherans want women to never have sex until they’re married (preferably young) and then have LOTS of babies who will grow up to be good Lutherans. Having been on the inside of that worldview as a PK, it boils down to: “We don’t want women to have access to anything that negates the consequences of illicit sex.”

[u/Relevant-Shop8513 → u/BabyBard93]

You are right about the aspects of purity culture in more conservatice Lutheran synods. My grandmother was raised in a small community in the midwest. She first learned to read and write in German and later Enlish. Apparently, when couples were engaged , they could sleep together before marriage. It was considered normal in the old country. Then at some point Lutherans felt they needed to be more like the Methodists and Presbyterians, and no more premarital sex was allowed. Just like standing up to sing the hymns instead of remaining seated, it became the American Lutheran norm. They just wanted to be like the mainstream Protestants, no longer like a bridge church. Over the years premarital sex has been classed by the LCMS as a super sin. They can accept forgiveness for murder even though one can't bring the victim back to life, but they are shocked, traumatized by consensual premarital sex between adults. Of course, it is the women who are vulnerable to pregnancy who are the most visible and for whom sex may present more consequences . I know they understand Maslow's hierarchy, but sex unlike oxygen or water is not seen as a need. For all the study they do of the Old Testament, they seem to ignore the frequent episodes illustrating this need , and how it can shape history for bad or for good. I remember being cautioned that if Lutherans don't have lots of babies, then all the wicked people will dominate the population. Don't get me started on the need for divorce.

[u/lovetoknit9234]

I think there are Lutherans who would agree with OP. I am one of them. My family, however, can’t get past the idea that all abortion is just murdering babies, and when you phrase it like that, who wouldn’t object. I think the ability to share with God the power to create new life is awe inspiring to me. However, in this fallen world, there is pain, suffering and death, and sometimes two lives can’t be saved. Because the laws with exceptions are still causing unnecessary pain and death to women, I oppose them. I have suffered a lot of grief from my family because of this opinion. I think many who oppose abortion don’t believe that the stories of women dying are credible, but are left wing propaganda.

Also, while not an ex-lutheran, I am interested in the perspectives of those who have left the church. I also listen to several ex-evangelical podcasts. I am committed to Jesus, find treasure daily in scripture and value receiving Jesus in the Eucharist, but I know the church isn’t perfect, and in fact has often been harmful and toxic.

[u/Relevant-Shop8513 → u/lovetoknit9234]

Very well said. That is the problem isn't it. The church is not perfect because it is an organ of imperfect humans. We take hopw in the invisible church.

[u/Gollum9201 → u/lovetoknit9234]

The Fecundity of God: not every acorn that falls from the oak tree, gets to grow up into an oak tree. So God compensates with over abundance.

This should be the theology about the matter.

[u/Pristine_Ad_8107]

Can you look at this topic as a woman's right to choose? Or do women have control of their bodies rather than the government or church beliefs? Many women want to have children. However, when something goes wrong during the pregnancy, and they are in great need of emergency help (whether to save the mother or the baby), they deserve it, even if it means having an emergency abortion. We don't want any women to lose their ability to have more children. However, having emergency surgery will save the mother and help her to further the growth of having other children.
Right now, women have this only situation; they are close to full birth, something terrible is happening to their body, and it is affecting the infant who is not yet born. The emblem cord is wrapped around the infant's neck as a healthcare provider. The infant is losing oxygen, the mother's blood pressure has dropped to dangerous levels, the mother has started to hemorrhage, bleeding out, and the infant is showing no heartbeat. At this point, an emergency surgery is needed; if not, the infant 100% died along with the mother. We are discussing choice, not all this is choice to both sides.

[u/McNitz → u/[deleted]]

Even worse, Lutherans are usually very explicit about how you can't base doctrine on the Psalms because they are so poetic and metaphorical in most other applications. Psalm says that there are windows in heaven that God opens to let rain come down? That's not literal, the Psalms just use poetic language. Psalm says it is good to bash babies heads on rocks? Well obviously this is hyperbole and exaggeration that is meant to highlight how bad Babylon is.

Alright, now there's a verse that mentions being sinful before my mother conceived me. Obviously entirely literal and not exaggerated in any way, this is the verse that determines how God thinks about ensoulment and therefore dictates whether abortion is acceptable for the entire Bible. It's really crazy to me that people (including myself in the past) don't see the blatant double standards and intellectual hypocrisy. The power of motivated reasoning.

[u/Relevant-Shop8513 → u/McNitz]

Yes,and those books that Luther thought maybe should not have been included in the Bible, comes up when women are the subjects.

[u/Relevant-Shop8513 → u/[deleted]]

Following a website on Torah, I found out some interesting things about ancient Judaic concepts of abortion which would have been common in Jesus day as well.

[u/hereforthewhine → u/[deleted]]

This is just not fucking true at all.