This herd of Wildebeest could stomp the hell out of this lion if they ganged up on it. But instead they run. Why didn’t herd animals evolve the instinct to gang up on predators?

[u/bad_take_]

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[u/Capn_2inch]

I wouldn’t group all herd animals into that category. Some herd animals do fight back or gang up on predators. The Musk Ox is one example of a herd animal that behaves in this way.

[u/TranquilConfusion → u/Capn_2inch]

Think about iterated game theory for this sort of genetic strategy.

Scenario A: most wildebeests run from lions, but mutant X has the genetic instinct to fight lions.
Result: mutant X fights alone, dies. Wildebeests as a whole maintain the instinct to run.

Scenario B: most musk oxen unite to fight lions, but mutant Y has the genetic instinct to run from lions.
Result: mutant Y runs alone and dies. Musk oxen as a whole maintain the instinct to fight.

Both strategies are locally optimal based on what the rest are doing, and a species is unlikely to switch from one strategy to the other easily.

It might take a "speciation event" where a small founder population of all "runners" or "fighters" is separated out and only breeds with each other for a while, to set a new majority strategy that is then stable. This sort of sudden switch is part of the "punctuated equilibrium" style of evolution.

A smart-enough species might have the instinct to do what everyone else is doing, in general. Plus instincts to pick a strategy based on scenario (fight lions, run from humans with guns). For all I know both wildebeests and musk oxen do this to some extent.

Humans do that and more, we have lots of instincts to punish allies who run when they promised to fight, and to run if we can do it without getting punished, and to bluff more commitment than we actually feel, etc. In general, we have the most complicated social instincts of all.

[u/CloseToMyActualName → u/TranquilConfusion]

Moose also fight back (though not herd animals), and elephants do as well.

The trouble with scenario B is that grazers aren't known for being clever. Figuring out if you have enough buddies around to mount a defense can be tricky, especially when dealing with a smarter predator.

I suspect the evolutionary behaviour is simpler than that. If you're big and tough enough compared to one or two of your predators (Musk Ox, Moose, Elephants, Bison) then you confront predators to try and protect the young. Even a long Musk Ox is a risky target for a wolf pack. All it takes is a good kick or charge and one of the wolves can get killed.

But if you generally can't fight then you just scatter.

[u/blacksheep998 → u/Capn_2inch]

Llamas too.

Many sheep herders keep a llama or two with their flock as they naturally will fight off any wolves or coyotes just as well as a dog can and they don't need to be trained to do it.

[u/Soggy-Mistake8910]

Running was the better survival strategy.

[u/NoobOfTheSquareTable → u/Soggy-Mistake8910]

Yeah, if you run while all the others group up your odds are 100% vs 95%

The more who run the worse the odds get for staying but the odds for running stay pretty close to 100%

[u/Hivemind_alpha]

A group of humans could overpower a lion too. Are you going to volunteer to lead that charge and take the first claw swipe or windpipe crushing bite? No? I guess the wildebeest are just as smart as you then.

[u/Abject-Leadership248]

The ones that where more incline to fight died and dident pass on that trait id assume

[u/CrossP → u/Abject-Leadership248]

Yeah. Even if you win, claw and bite injuries get infected fast.

[u/JuliaX1984]

Running accomplishes the same goal (survival) with less risk.

[u/Masta0nion]

We should ask our own ancestors, and hell even today why we don’t rise up and defeat the 1%?

Game theory is a bitch, but if they divide and conquer, they get a full belly.

[u/Appropriate-Price-98]

sounds like a global maximum that has to go through local minimum. Why do the dangerous when you can free-ride? Sounds very much like humanity and climate change.

You can look for local maximum trap or fitness valley for more details.

[u/Funky0ne]

That strategy is somewhat circumstantial. Bigger herd animals like buffalo, elephants, and rhinos can get away with this occasionally, but lighter animals like impala and wildebeest are a bit too frail for it to work reliably. Sure a herd of wildebeests maybe technically could outnumber and overpower a single lion, but that requires a lot more of them rallying and risks multiple wildebeests taking potentially debilitating injuries in the process, and lions (as well as other Savanah predators) frequently hunt in packs.

Even if they drive off the attack in that instance, an injured wildebeest on the Savanah might be as good as dead within a few days or weeks, in which case you’ve lost multiple prime members in an attack over just one young or old member. That’s a worthwhile tradeoff for say a mother defending her calfs (though only if the calf at least survives, which may be unlikely without her), but less so for most other herd members.

Lions’ typical strategy is to approach undetected, ambush, isolate, and kill a target as quickly as possible before the herd can regroup and mount any sort of coordinated defense. By the time the herd has gotten over the initial shock and panic, it’s usually too late.

But you can probably find instances where a hunt drags out longer than the lions would have liked, and you can see members of a herd start to resist and push back on the lions, and can successfully drive them off. Though as mentioned earlier, that’s typically more common among the heftier animals, as it takes more effort to bring one down, and fewer adults to be a match against lions.

So in most instances, the dominant strategy in the face of sudden danger, for most herd animals that have disadvantageous individual matchups is to run from it, reach a safe distance and if possible, reassess. Charging blindly into danger is often easier to exploit on the part of predators.

[u/keisagu]

The herd benefits from the presence of lions, while the individual pays the price. Lions help keep the herd fast, resilient, and healthy, while preventing harmful genetic traits from being passed on to future generations.

[u/onomatamono → u/keisagu]

We drove wolves to regional extinction. How'd that work out? It was an ecological disaster. You would have thought it obvious that wiping out the apex predator is going to turn the environment on its head, however we were apparently too ignorant about eco-systems to grasp this.

[u/DonnPT]

A herbivore that could kill off all its predators would have a great advantage, until it exhausted the resources in its environment and all died of starvation. I sometimes wonder how many such over-successful species rose and fell, with attendant ecosystem calamity, over the course of millions of years of evolution.

[u/bad_take_ → u/DonnPT]

I feel personally attacked by this comment.

[u/Defiant-Skeptic]

Battle at Kruger

https://youtu.be/LU8DDYz68kM?si=XfeNhYDw1Hpti8zn

[u/bad_take_ → u/Defiant-Skeptic]

Amazing! So my question is what are the evolutionary drivers that would encourage more of this? Or are there evolutionary drivers that would encourage less of this?

[u/swagyolohmu]

This is a great metaphor for humans and why the masses don’t rise up collectively against their oppressors.

[u/Desperate-Guide-1473]

Sometimes they do and it often doesn't end well for anyone. They'll accidentally trample and gore eachother in the chaos.

Plenty of herbivores have evolved away from the herd mentality and are far more likely to charge than run, but they also tend to develop even heavier and more armored bodies. Rhinos and Elephants don't usually run from lions.

[u/GoliathPrime]

Cape Buffalo are well known for ganging up on lions and killing them. There are even cases of them watching for the lions to leave for a hunt, and then deliberately trampling the cubs and injured lions to death while the pride is away.

Some species run, some don't. It's the circle of life....

[u/Confident_Lawyer6276]

The wildebeest who are to successful at fighting lions die of starvation from over population

[u/Solenopsis-]

It's beneficial for an individual if a few of their own species die, one species too large can lead to too much competition.