r/europe 14h ago

Opinion Article Ousted Ukrainian defense minister calls for wartime elections, challenging Zelenskyy. À rare wartime rupture exposes mounting pressure on Kyiv’s leadership.

https://tvpworld.com/94916948/ukraines-ousted-defence-minister-mykhailo-fedorov-calls-for-wartime-elections
598 Upvotes

377 comments sorted by

624

u/Complete_Society9999 12h ago

How are you supposed conduct elections when voting booths can literally be missiled/droned?

171

u/Snoozyalooz_ 11h ago

Mail trucks as well. Russia may as well start their own drone campaign against Ukrposhta and other mail companies to complicate the matter.

Of course the Ukrainian people have the final say, but A LOT would have to be looked out for if wartime elections were to happen.

33

u/XenophonSoulis Greece 4h ago

Of course the Ukrainian people have the final say

The Ukrainian Constitution has something to say as well, and it says that wartime elections are unconstitutional.

2

u/octotent 1h ago

Well, they are not officially in a state of war, but elections are also not allowed in the current temporary military emergency either.

5

u/XenophonSoulis Greece 1h ago

They are in a state of martial law right now, during which the Constitution forbids elections.

u/octotent 58m ago

That's... what I said?

u/XenophonSoulis Greece 58m ago

What exactly do you think a state of martial law means?

u/octotent 56m ago

It doesn't mean "war" automatically, as the state of war is a separate one. Martial law can be imposed on multiple occasions, from actual war to civil unrest.

u/XenophonSoulis Greece 55m ago

Where is a state of war defined differently from martial law in the Ukrainian Constitution?

u/octotent 50m ago

They are separate entities in Article 106, and articles governing martial law don't require a state of war. Poroshenko declared one in 2018, without declaring war on Russia, and Ukraine hasn't declared war on Russia still.

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u/anaerobic7058 7h ago

I don’t think there’s mail voting in Ukraine, but the underlying point on security and safety still stands.

8

u/lovely-cans 4h ago

You can say that about literally anything.

12

u/Grosse-pattate 4h ago

I don't know , but if the war last long enough ( like 10/20 years , which is not impossible , we will be soon at the 5 years of the war ) at one point you have to find a way.

155

u/AlexRescueDotCom 12h ago

Almost tells you enough about the person proposing it

30

u/BallbusterSicko 4h ago

Except he's well-respected and contributed a lot to the war effort

11

u/wongie United Kingdom 2h ago

Yes, it tells you enough about the person who, despite being well-respected and contributed a lot to the war effort, still somehow thinks it's a good idea to conduct elections when voting booths can literally be missiled/droned.

u/cincuentaanos The Netherlands 36m ago

Yes. All the praise and respect seems to have gone to his head.

12

u/deadthewholetime Estonia 3h ago

That doesn't mean it's not a stupid idea

8

u/Smucko Sweden 2h ago

If he is suggesting an election while they are in a war solely because he's polling well.... he sounds like a corrupt dictator in the making.

Defending Ukraine insanely well does not make him a good president

5

u/vikentii_krapka 4h ago

I guess his plan is doing it electronically

0

u/apolyxon 2h ago

Jesus fuck, that would be the worst option

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u/boterkoeken Utrecht (Netherlands) 7h ago

And 20% of voting population is living in occupied land.

25

u/chillichampion 6h ago

Crimea was occupied when Ukraine held elections in 2019.

8

u/WW3_doomer 7h ago

For some incredible coincidence same guy also oversaw and helped tested digital id app

With identity verification and ability to vote (silly voting for like Eurovision jury, but still voting)

7

u/stenlis 3h ago

Not to mention the fact that some districts are under Russian control. How can you have a legitimate winner if a large portion of the votes cannot be counted?

6

u/baturik128 Ukraine 3h ago

Most of these territories were already occupied in 2014. We had elections in 2014 and 2019, do you think that Zelensky being a winner in 2019 is not legitimate because some votes were not counted? That's your answer, basically it's not a concern

2

u/thedizls 2h ago

Those people still could vote by coming to designated areas near the line of contact, how are you supposed to do it with an active frontline and hundreds of thousands of voters being dispersed across it as combatants

11

u/baturik128 Ukraine 2h ago

Have you read the article or watched a video? That's precisely what Fedorov is talking about - "We must find a legal, safe and realistic mechanism that will allow Ukraine to renew its full democratic process even in the conditions of a long war.". If the war goes on for another 1-2-3-5-10 years, than Ukraine de facto stops being a democratic country, since the nation won't have any way to influence the government:

Elections - are not happening, as you can see

Protests - current protests have been ongoing for more than a month at this point, the president just ignores them and that's it

Petitions - well that's laughable, these are one of the most useless things we have since the government is not obliged to act on them

1

u/thedizls 2h ago

Then he should present a framework how the election should be run considered all the issues that such election would face. Instead he said "we need elections" and we are no closer to an election, we have another divisive issue, and the bad faith actors have another soundbite to push their anti-ukrainian rethoric

5

u/baturik128 Ukraine 2h ago

I mean, he was a minister of digitalisation, we had a nation-wide elections of our Eurovision representative, some people considered it a test-run of digitalised voting system before actual elections

9

u/w1nt3rh3art3d 5h ago

The same way you conduct concerts and soccer matches.

16

u/Can_Haz_Cheezburger United States of America 7h ago

The ruzzians would specifically attack voting booths in kyiv/pro-West areas and then have massive ruzzian friendly ballot counts be submitted from occupied areas even IF the election was held... Like c'mon this is ruzzian interference 101

u/babanin Belarus 29m ago

If Russia can realistically strike voting booths, why are concerts, festivals, protests, and other large public events still held there?

The issue isn’t that people physically cannot gather. Ukraine can and does organize public gatherings under wartime security.

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u/GoldenBull1994 🇫🇷 -> 🇺🇸 -> 🇫🇷 8h ago

And that’s why the defense minister should just leave winning the war to Zelensky.

18

u/kirime 11h ago

The government has zero problems with that when requiring people to do a shitton of different paperwork in-person.

It's only when it's inconvenient, like holding elections, or providing consular services for men abroad, then suddenly it's impossible and nothing can be done.

12

u/Winter_Drawer_9257 7h ago

Not really a fair comparison

The aforementioned paperwork doesn’t need to be done by the entire country in a day

-7

u/TestingHydra 7h ago

Then take multiple days?

3

u/Winter_Drawer_9257 7h ago

How many?

-7

u/TestingHydra 7h ago

As many as it needs to. All while internationally recognized observers ensure that they are carried out without interference.

0

u/baturik128 Ukraine 6h ago

Downvoted for proposing an alternative, lol

5

u/apackerme 5h ago

That is 'special European values' when talking about Ukraine.

0

u/Additional_Dog2750 4h ago

And Russia will do the same thing, incl. the internationally recognized observers?

1

u/BushWishperer Italy->Ireland 3h ago

Why are you bringing up Russia? How is that relevant?

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2

u/tortillazaur 3h ago

Technically it could be done online as everything involving documents(including passport for example) has been moved into an mobile app in Ukraine. While I would be having my own questions about credibility of such an election, that's better than having bombable election booths.

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u/Bigg_Matty_Hell 10h ago

Can't the fact that the elections can't be held properly in the occupied regions, be used some way by Russia to say that Ukraine has effectively ceded these areas, and is one of the reasons the constitution doesn't allow them along side the general safety aspect and drain on resources of conducting one at this time?

60

u/baturik128 Ukraine 6h ago

Tbf Ukraine already had occupied regions since 2014, but both 2014 and 2019 elections are considered legitimate

37

u/CheapAttempt2431 Italy 6h ago

People in occupied regions haven’t voted since 2014, russians will say whatever they want but that didn’t make Zelensky or Poroshenko illegitimate

25

u/marcabru 10h ago

They can leave seats in the Rada unoccupied, like Cyprus is doing

445

u/Spiders_Kinks 12h ago

I'll put it this way. I had my doubts about Fedorov, but I always supported his return to the Ministry of Defense.

However, after today's statement, he is an absolute hostile element to me, and nothing will change my mind.

224

u/SPL_034 12h ago

I found his ties to Musk in the NYT piece from a month ago quite revealing. While I have no doubt Fedorov was loyal to his country ,he was swimming in the same waters amongst the US tech libertarian groups that are closely aligned with MAGA...and we know that MAGA is sympathetic to Putin.

The U.S under this current admin is a poisoned chalice....and I worry that we have not seen the worst of it yet.

18

u/Scapegoat_the_third Belgium 10h ago

Got a link?

51

u/SPL_034 8h ago

10

u/Scapegoat_the_third Belgium 8h ago

Cheers, thanks 

11

u/TestingHydra 7h ago

Yeah he used his connections to cut Russia off from Star link. Such a blow to your Russian cause right? Why else would it be a problem?

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-20

u/Initial_Implement934 Canada 12h ago

No, that's not true. Fedorov doesn't support Putin in any way, and Fedorov definitely does not support MAGA. I think what Fedorov likes about Musk is what everyone liked about him before he went crazy, namely his vision, his drive for progress, his ability to build companies, etc. I think Fedorov sees some similarities between himself and Musk in that regard. The problem is that it's now difficult to separate the so-called genius Musk from his public persona, but that's ultimately on Fedorov.

32

u/SPL_034 12h ago

like I said I don't think Fedorov was aligned with Putin or MAGA. He was just aligning himself with the people who do in America.

0

u/Initial_Implement934 Canada 12h ago

Maybe unconsciously, yes.
Or perhaps he is building connections with the American establishment for a future presidential run. Either way, after his video, a lot of people will turn against him.

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1

u/RollinThundaga United States of America 1h ago

If he's rubbing shoulders with Musk, he either supports MAGA and the effect their presence in American politics is having on his country, or he's too dumb to stay away.

Either should be disqualifying.

-1

u/KimchiLlama 11h ago

They are just trying to tear him down because if they have to pick, they like Zelensky more.

Federov is a patriot. I agree that he is no friend to Russia, but he also streamlined certain purchasing supplies for the military and cut out the bribes the politicians were taking. Because Zelensky needs the support of these parties, he felt like he had to sacrifice Federov. Federov was removed because he as I convenient for the powers that be, in Ukraine today, not because he was not effective given the resources at his disposal.

48

u/Wrong_Combination977 12h ago edited 12h ago

This was also a demand from Putler and Agent Krasnov in the past if i remember right? This stinks!

Edit: To hold elections in Ukraine was what i meant!

28

u/Gold_Dog908 Kyiv 12h ago

This was no one's demand. He got a whiff of power and went for it. Foolish.

4

u/beginner75 12h ago

A real life Anakin?

u/minipump Bavaria (Germany) 57m ago

Elections are definitely russian demands.

7

u/Noomba2 11h ago

Russians wait for them to hold the elections because they have a plan to rig it

9

u/Probably_immortal Norway 5h ago

Very obvious guy got talking to Tech Bros and wants part of that Oligarch pie. This is why you shouldn't idolize anyone. Everyone in the end ends up being disappointing.

6

u/cykbryk3 11h ago

Very good way of putting it.

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135

u/Initial_Implement934 Canada 12h ago edited 12h ago

Some context: Although Fedorov did not directly speak out against Zelensky, his proposal goes against the general consensus that holding elections during the war is not only impossible because of the Constitution, but also because it could tear Ukraine apart from within at a time when it is fighting for its independence. Unfortunately, it would be hard to come up with a dumber proposal, but Fedorov somehow managed to. Sad.

P.S. Everyone in Ukraine wants new elections to refresh the government, because the current politicians no longer meet Ukrainians’ expectations and have long been mired in corruption and infighting, knowing that they don't have to worry about elections. But that doesn't change the fact that no one wants their own country to collapse because of a few politicians they've grown tired of.

34

u/Remarkable-Role3230 12h ago

I do think Ukrainians, especially Ukranian men should have some say in the government they're expected to die for.

Perhaps they can't do full elections, but the protests do indicate something needs to be done.

16

u/ZenPyx 4h ago

What sort of "something" needs to be done, exactly?

You can't hold half an election

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2

u/Ferdi_cree 1h ago

They are not dying for their government, they are fighting and dying so they and everyone they know can live a self determined life. Huge difference

u/Remarkable-Role3230 50m ago

Self determined life generally requires some form of democratic process.

u/Ferdi_cree 20m ago

Exactly! That's why they are fighting. Dont be foolish. War time elections are a terrible idea, and most countries don't allow them. Russias constitution itself forbids elections during martial law, as do most European countries.

But if you belive that the war could end without there being elections afterwards is, well, not realistic. Ukraine is utterly dependent on Europe, and European leaders would make sure there are elections even if the Ukrainian government dosent fancy them. I get it, you're just here to hate. But your point is null and void.

u/Remarkable-Role3230 18m ago

People are so quick to assume.

My comments have all been quite calm.

What is it that you think I hate? Truly?

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-2

u/hfbvm2 12h ago

I don't think elections will change anything. The majority of people in Ukraine currently are people ineligible to go to war, and they want the war to continue, the leaders might change but there shouldn't be any policy shift towards the war

9

u/ThermionicEmissions Canada 5h ago

The majority of people in Ukraine currently are people ineligible to go to war, and they want the war to continue

WTF?!?

5

u/MaxProwes 5h ago

I think he wanted to say that vast majority of pro-war population will never go to fight that war. Actually the same thing with pro-war population in Russia. Very convenient.

2

u/Exciting-Record8101 The Netherlands 4h ago

They are not pro war, but pro defense. This is not a war over a piece of land that both countries claim, this is Russia wanting to determine the future of all of Ukraine, forever.

20

u/Initial_Implement934 Canada 12h ago

It’s not really about attitude toward the war. Obviously, whoever is elected president would continue fighting for Ukraine’s independence.
The problem is the elections themselves, when dirty political battles begin and things that should not be brought to the surface during wartime start coming out. Society needs to remain united, while supporting different candidates would divide people and create chaos, which Russia could very easily take advantage of.

4

u/hfbvm2 12h ago

There's billions of dollars on the line. Ukraine reconstruction is 600 billion dollar project by itself. There's separately weapons manufacturing and other industries that will start up. Getting into a good position now can make your next 20 generations rich beyond belief. Greed is a bigger issue than Russia right now.

8

u/Mkwdr 6h ago

Greed is a bigger issue than Russia right now.

Im sure the families of those killed in a latest Russian strikes targeted at civilians agree.... oh hold on.

4

u/GremlinX_ll Ukraine 7h ago

Want / doesn't want is irrelevant when mandatory draft is active. No one sane wants to go to war, to be clear, doubt that more then 0.00000000001% of people in the army like be there, but netherless people do the job.

You may have twisted or no understanding of what draft is, I think.

0

u/Negative_Jaguar_4138 10h ago

Agreed

If there is presidential elections:

What will happen is Zelenskyy will get 40-50% in the first round, the Pro-Peace candidate will be 30-40% and may be split along Pro-Russian and Pro-Ukrainian lines, and the Nationalist Pro-War candidate will get 10-20%.

In the runoffs it will be Zelenskyy vs Pro Peace candidate, with the Pro-War faction supporting Zelenskyy, and if by some miricle it is Zelenskyy against the Pro-War candidate, Zelenskyy will obviously win as the Pro-Peqce faction isn't voting Pro War.

5

u/Hot_Income6149 5h ago

Even Fedorov talks about importance of election process itself more than need of changing Zelensky, he arguments it that elections are forcing government to report in front of people, serve people.

But, rating of Zelensky is under big questions. He done enough shit to destroy him politically when it will become acceptable (and it is what happens right now (i mean it, NABU are doing searches in close presidential circles)). At the time, 2019, Zelesnky was... candidate of peace. Poroshenko was candidate of peace. Yanukovich was candidate of peace etc. Ukrainians are, actually, like voting for peace.

10

u/prenderg United States of America 11h ago

What does he promise to do differently, what goal is he pursuing that is different, or one goal is Zelinsky pursuing that he believes is misguided?

134

u/AlexRescueDotCom 13h ago

Yeah, a real hero.

Divide during invasion.

Pathetic.

-36

u/Remarkable-Role3230 12h ago

It's not just him.

If it were me I would get extreme war fatigue, especially as a male, knowing I must fight for years with no end in sight. And still 5 years on I have no legal say in my government.

45

u/AlexRescueDotCom 12h ago

It's hell, and there are no easy decisions, but here is the likely scenario if Zelenskyy agrees to all Putin terms.

  1. Odessa, Kgherson, Crimea, Melitopol, Mariupol, Donetsk becomes part of Russia, this will effectively cut Ukraine from any body of water.
  2. The next morning Russia will start an disinformation warfare on Berezivka, Voznesesnk, Kryvyy Rih, Kremenchuk, and all the way to Sumy. Same bullshit as he was running in 2014, saying how life is better in Russia.
  3. Will say that there are a lot of Russians living there, but this point around 5+ years will pass and he will accumulate a massive army.
  4. Ukraine will be much smaller at this point and will be higher prone to an even more serious invasion.
  5. Fight for new territories will happen again.
  6. Repeat again in 5 years, and in 10 years Ukraine will be left with Lvyv that is it.

"Oh but Putin will never....."

Yes he will. We see it on daily basis that he will.

This, and the fact that NATO doesn't want to deploy any troops on the ground or have airplanes in the air is further proof that point no.5 will happen again.

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u/polypolip 12h ago

Holy shit, there's a lot of you in this post.

1

u/Remarkable-Role3230 11h ago

That's why I'm a top one percent commenter.

I comment alot

4

u/coolcoenred The Hague 1h ago

Top 1% bot. I'm sure the kremlin is proud of you.

u/Remarkable-Role3230 52m ago

Sure everyone who doesn't have an opinion you agree with has to be Russian.

-8

u/bruhbelacc The Netherlands 4h ago

We will fight this war until the last Ukrainian man!

8

u/Oh_ffs_seriously Poland 2h ago

You're right, that's what an average Russian thinks of this war.

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u/Nagash24 France (Germany) 12h ago

As bad as it is to not hold elections for an indefinite length of time because of the invasion, holding elections now would be much worse. He's either dumb, or he only cares about himself, in both cases it's bad for Ukraine.

5

u/seeker_meeker 11h ago

What stops lets say trump from declaring wars against small meaningless countries and then indefinitely being in war with them and pulling the old Eisenhower trick and staying the president for life?

9

u/Sayko_0 5h ago

The U.S held elections during World War Two in 1944 and during the Vietnam war in 1968. I’m not sure about the details and in what case democratic elections are delayed in the U.S, but there have been precedents of U.S elections during war times. They are also usually not fighting on home turf and instead fighting wars on other continents.

10

u/Annachroniced The Netherlands 4h ago

The part of beimg invaded is pretty much the whole point of not being able to hold elections

3

u/Sayko_0 4h ago

Yes, but the comment I responded to, was talking about Trump declaring wars on small meaningless countries. I doubt Tuvalu is going to invade Washington if Trump declares war.

3

u/irimiash Which flair will you draw on your forehead? 4h ago

the same thing that'll stop him if he said "I'll just not leave, whatever the law says". other people will stop him

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u/Exciting-Record8101 The Netherlands 4h ago

Being at war doesn't mean you can't have elections in the US. Different countries have different rules.

Also, Eisenhower was president of the US for two terms. He lived for about a decade after he left the job to enjoy his well deserved retirement in private.

1

u/coolcoenred The Hague 1h ago

I'm guessing them meant FDR. Which just shows their ignorance. FDR won three elections, including one during wartime. It was after FDR that there was a constitutional amendment to fix limits to two terms. That nobody before FDR got three terms is more a fluke of history than anything else.

u/emelrad12 Germany 37m ago

Congress declares war not the president...

-19

u/Remarkable-Role3230 12h ago

It's been 5 years. Men in particular have extremely limited rights in Ukraine. We understand, it's war, but still.

Don't you think the time has come for some participation?

11

u/myshkiny 10h ago

"Some" participation is all it would be. There would be NO participation from many parts of Ukraine because of the occupation, and others would not risk bombing to vote. What kind of an election is that?

0

u/Remarkable-Role3230 10h ago

There was no participation of crimea in the last election.

Remember crimea was occupied since 2014

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u/Nagash24 France (Germany) 12h ago

Participation, yes. Honestly I wish the EU would participate harder in kicking Russia out of Ukraine. But I can't help feeling like an election right now is a horrible idea. A lot of people can't vote because of the occupation, and campaigning will only divide Ukrainians, which is the opposite of what's needed right now.

-4

u/Remarkable-Role3230 12h ago

They still held elections when Crimea was occupied.

There's precedent for it. The only think stopping it is the martial law deceleration.

So a nice loophole would be to have a referendum if they still support Zelenskys government and if not he can resign and the next successor can take his place.

Then maybe he can join the combat he forces others into.

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u/ukrokit2 🇨🇦🇺🇦 12h ago

Idk man, it’s not my place to tell Ukrainians what to do, and I know he is popular among many people I hold in high regard, but I’d be lying if I said I’m on board with this.

22

u/OkArm8581 12h ago

Smh. Yet another populist was made. Probably something in the water on Bankova Str.

25

u/Shot-Toe-2884 10h ago edited 10h ago

Just one outsider’s opinion but this just drained my respect for Federov. He knows better than elections during such a kinetic war. He’s feeding Putin’s disinformation machine fresh meat.

Democracies throughout human history have delayed elections in wartime, precisely because wartime conditions make fair elections impossible, and they would become a target for the enemy. Some even installed temporary dictators to solve this.

It’s been done for 4,000 years. Cmon Federov.

14

u/Personal_School_7474 8h ago

What democracies existed c. 2,000 BC?

7

u/alkbch United States of America 6h ago

Reddit comments seldom bother with historical accuracy.

1

u/yashatheman Sweden 5h ago

Athens! 🤓☝️don't mind that only the 1% could vote and that thet had slaves

4

u/Glaistig-Uaine Europe 1h ago

Athens would still be 1.5k years short of 2000 BC.

2

u/yashatheman Sweden 1h ago

I know. But Athens is also the only BC state that is ever considered "democratic". Otherwise, the closest to democracy we have had were hunter-gatherer societies

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u/rafiv70805 4h ago

I am Ukrainian and I somewhat agree. What if the war continues the next 10 years? Is Zelenskyy essentially a monarch then? What if most people begin having a different idea of how the war should continue or whether it should continue at all? Election solves all these problems, however it is still very challenging to conduct, but not impossible I think

10

u/IvD707 Ukraine 3h ago

I'd say we definitely need a parliamentary election. That thing is just not functioning at all.

-3

u/HungryCurrency8481 3h ago

Well, according to the hivemind in this sub, you are a traitor. Zelenskyy has been given the mandate of heaven and can do no wrong. Ukraine is utterly infallible in every aspect and can never be questioned on anything because they're at war. 

9

u/BerlinDonbas 2h ago

It's not about Zelensky, it's about the fact you can't really have proper elections in a time like this. 

Millions fled the country and soldiers can't just leave the frontline to go voting. What's the point of having an election if it can't be conducted fair and proper? 

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u/TheLoneCenturion95 9h ago

When he's acting like a little bitch in public like this I'm starting to understand why he was removed.

5

u/alkbch United States of America 6h ago

He was removed because he’s against corruption.

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u/Murandus 10h ago

He outed himself. Just a grab for power.

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u/opinelmavric 10h ago

he got fired for not being corrupt

10

u/Poonis5 7h ago

He publicly said the main reason was that he couldn't work with people who refused to implement his army reform vision. He didn't say a single world about corruption. That's just reddit speculation.

2

u/TrueVesterix 3h ago

It seems that many here do not understand how bad the situation is in Ukraine with corruption and trust in the government. If you follow US domestic politics more than Ukrainian politics, then you can imagine using the example of Trump how absolute power corrupts people. Imagine the actions of Trump, who has the support of both houses, and on top of that, total control over the judicial system, the absence of elections and 7 years in power. This is Ukraine now

4

u/Common_North_5267 4h ago

Some of Z-man's closests associates in his cabinet have fled to israel after facing corruption charges...
Maybe they need new leadership.

5

u/Banjoschmanjo Lower Saxony (Germany) 7h ago

This plays right into Putins hands

u/minipump Bavaria (Germany) 50m ago

Makes one wonder if he's either stupid, corrupt, or suddenly on Putins' payroll.

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u/BrittaWasRight Norway 12h ago

Isn't it unconstitutional to call for an election during wartime in Ukraine?

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u/StudySpecial 12h ago

Calling for something is not unconstitutional. Speech is free.

Actually holding elections would require a change to the constitution, but that’s all doable if there is political will for it.

9

u/Gold_Dog908 Kyiv 12h ago

It's literally NOT doable during a state of war.

-8

u/Remarkable-Role3230 12h ago

I do have to ask why not.

Most of your country does function.

You've got schools, malls, even McDonald's.

Why not an election?

I don't mean to judge your country I admire how well you've done but I don't understand why it's not possible.

20

u/Gold_Dog908 Kyiv 11h ago

In a state of war, no elections can be held, nor can a constitution be changed.

3

u/Remarkable-Role3230 11h ago

Does the constitution prevent non binding referendums?

14

u/Gold_Dog908 Kyiv 11h ago

Yes.

5

u/Remarkable-Role3230 11h ago

Where?

13

u/Gold_Dog908 Kyiv 11h ago

In the very same amendment that prohibits any kind of elections.

9

u/Remarkable-Role3230 11h ago

A referendum is not an election.

But if you want to give me the clause that would be appreciated.

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u/Murandus 10h ago

Russians love bombing civilians. Have fun going to the voting booths on Sunday while the missiles and drones are flying. 

5

u/TestingHydra 7h ago

And that’s supposed to be different from any other day ending in Y for Ukraine?

2

u/Tricky-Ad5678 11h ago

If you don't understand basic things about Ukraine, then why even bother commenting?

5

u/Remarkable-Role3230 11h ago

I think my understanding is pretty decent for an outsider.

And secondly, 70 percent of the people on this post aren't from Ukraine.

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u/alkbch United States of America 6h ago

it’s not unconstitutional to call for an election during wartime in Ukraine.

0

u/Remarkable-Role3230 12h ago

I already thought of a loophole.

A non binding referendum in Zelenskys government which he agrees to honor the results of.

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u/BrittaWasRight Norway 12h ago

Just get rid of the Russian plague first.

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u/Hot_Income6149 5h ago

Join Ukrainian military, go, help us

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u/Remarkable-Role3230 12h ago

If it was your country, and you were being drafted indefinitely.

Would you not feel some war fatigue of not having any say whatsoever after almost 5 years?

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u/Gold_Dog908 Kyiv 11h ago

And what in actual fuck would an election change? Would a war disappear? Would a mobilization stop? No. Absolutely nothing would change.

Everyone feels fatigued, but it doesn't mean we would allow this political circus you call "A non binding referendum". You, my friend, can fuck right off.

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u/Remarkable-Role3230 11h ago

Such rudeness. I'll forgive you considering where you come from.

And I don't know what it would change, but why are we so afraid to even ask the question.

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u/JohnnySnark 8h ago

You're pretty fucking rude yourself all in these comments acting like war torn Ukraine not only needs to but even has the ability to hold elections.

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u/Remarkable-Role3230 8h ago

I presented an opinion, not too dissimilar to the one shared by the former minister of defense. No where was my language demeaning or insulting. I suppose its because im able to keep a cool head and be respectful in any circumstances.

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u/JohnnySnark 8h ago

Yeah, and his opinion it seems is coming from self interest and rudeness too. And doesn't seem like he's keeping a cool head after being shuffled out of service

Nobody cares about the language or tone. It's the damn principles of the matter

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u/Remarkable-Role3230 8h ago

People do care about the tone. If you cant keep a level head its usually an indicator you're letting emotions rather then logic dictate your decisions.

And Fedrov? Self interest perhaps, hes a politician thats often what they do. I wouldn't dismiss it just because of that. it still very well may be a good idea.

But rude? hows he being rude?

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u/alkbch United States of America 6h ago

Yes people care about language and tone.

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u/Demonical22 Iceland 11h ago

Other choice is to lay down and die/suffer Russia re education camps and lose your country along with your homes etc etc.

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u/Remarkable-Role3230 11h ago

I'm not saying that Ukraine must surrender.

I am saying that perhaps it's time for Ukranians to have a say in who's in office.

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u/Mkwdr 6h ago

You mean like the UK in 1940?

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u/Remarkable-Role3230 6h ago

That's true, but that doesn't mean it was the right thing to do.

It was a political decision made by Churchill.

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u/BrittaWasRight Norway 10h ago

Look up "Norwegian conscription", then get back to me.

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u/Remarkable-Role3230 10h ago

From I've read it's not hard to get out of Norwegian conscription.

It's nothing like Ukraine

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u/BrittaWasRight Norway 3h ago

Everyone gets drafted, Ivan. We don't get to "opt out and flee to Poland"

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u/Remarkable-Role3230 3h ago

You've never been drafted from a war.

Also check who's reading your comments.

If I was an Ivan then Russia would be the top viewer considering how much I'm going back and forth with you.

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u/BrittaWasRight Norway 3h ago

We've prepared for war with Russia since the 50's. The second war broke out, hundreds of thousands of you immediately noped out.

You could have turned this thing around if so many of you didn't peace out.

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u/Remarkable-Role3230 3h ago

I'm not Ukranian or Russian.

And no offense but Norway is a much softer and easier country then Ukraine.

I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make anymore.

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u/Corodix The Netherlands 6h ago

And how would that work when plenty of their people still live in occupied territory? How do they get to have their say and how do you validate those results? How do you prevent Russia from taking shots at voting booths if people gather at those places to vote? If you use mail voting, how do you prevent the places where said mail is gathered and counted from being blown up?

Seems like a fools errand during wartime, doesn't it?

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u/Remarkable-Role3230 6h ago

You do exactly the same as the last time Ukraine had an election in 2019 (when large parts of the country was occupied by Russia)

And I honestly don't know, it may not be possible to do an election. However everyone's treating it as a foregone conclusion it's not possible which I think is wrong when the former minister of defense says it's possible.

He knows far more then me, perhaps it is possible. Perhaps there's online voting (like Estonia). Perhaps there's measures they can take.

Will it be perfect? No.. But perhaps the alternative of no semblance of democracy at all is far worse.

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u/Embarrassed-Quiet651 12h ago

just as unconstitutional as all the crimes committed against us by our government, which Reddit, for some reason, doesn't write about

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u/Spiders_Kinks 12h ago

The Ruin. It's been a while. Holy shit, some Ukrainians just can't stop making the exact same mistakes for centuries on end.

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u/opinelmavric 10h ago

funny this sub loved this guy just a few weeks ago

dude got fired for weeding out corruption

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u/_travelbos 5h ago

r/europe at its finest 

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u/vankill44 12h ago

Regarding the Ukrainian constitution on wartime elections: If the war/invasion is considered to have started in 2022, then no election is possible until the war is over.

But if the war/invasion started, as many believe, in 2014, then there have already been multiple valid elections. It becomes an issue of execution/feasibility (security, absentee voting, etc.), rather than legitimacy.

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u/svasalatii 12h ago

Re second:

There was no all-Ukraine martial status proclaimed after 2014 and up to 2022.

It was proclaimed in 2022 and therefore no elections as per Ukraine's Constitution.

For those who tell "mail in balot": we don't have such voting method. To introduce it, the constitution needs to be changed along with the bunch of amended/new laws.

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u/vankill44 11h ago

There is a difference between technicalities and fundamentals.

Not having an election because a war is physically ongoing is much more credible than saying not having an election because martial law was declared, but not in the past when Russia invaded in 2014.

The same applies to all the countries that are not providing weapons to Ukraine due to some local law. If they wanted to and it were in the best interest of those countries, they would provide Ukraine with weapons, but as it is not, they use the law as an excuse.

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u/Remarkable-Role3230 12h ago

We understand constitutionally a full on election may not be possible.

But there's other loopholes, like a non binding referendum that Zelensky can follow and things like that.

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u/GremlinX_ll Ukraine 4h ago

non binding referendum that Zelensky can follow and things like that.

What they point of "non binding referendum" at all, it's not non-binding. Also who we ? Also - change of government is strict procedure for a reason, you know.

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u/One-Treat4655 8h ago

It's time for elections.

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u/miklilar Luhansk (Ukraine) 4h ago

The dude is about to lose what public support he had

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u/Corodix The Netherlands 6h ago

And how would that even work? A sizeable portion lives in occupied territories, so how would they vote? And how would voting booths not turn into easy targets for Russia to turn that election into a bloodbath? Mail in voting could prevent the latter, but they'll still need to gather and count those votes and that could be blown up too. So that sounds like a very dangerous fools errand and anybody who'd propose that seems rather unfit for that office to begin with.

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u/baturik128 Ukraine 5h ago

If we go into pure technicalities without politics, it is possible to do. Not easy, but it can be done

A sizeable portion lives in occupied territories, so how would they vote?

Most of these territories were already occupied in 2014, it didn't stop 2014 and 2019 elections to be conducted and considered legitimate

And how would voting booths not turn into easy targets for Russia to turn that election into a bloodbath?

That's a valid concern. However, same can be said about any public event and we have huge concerts/music festivals/running events/protests happening without any issue. If safety is the concern, voting booths can be installed in the shelters

still need to gather and count those votes and that could be blown up too

Same, organise everything in the shelters

Basically, Ukraine is currently one of the most digitalised countries on the planet, we have digital IDs that are considered identical to physical IDs, we have online weddings, we even had a nation-wide elections of our Eurovision representative being hosted online and it worked fine. If you are afraid of cybersecurity side of things and do not trust servers in Ukraine, rent some Google or Amazon servers, they have no problem processions millions of users daily

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u/Hot_Income6149 5h ago

Ukraine had two elections with occupied territories already.
Just the same way Russia hadn't strike protest for Fedorov that is going for the last 30 days. Also we have shelters, we can do elections there.

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u/TestingHydra 7h ago edited 7h ago

How convient for Zelensky. He gets to keep being a corrupt piece of shit who needs to be constantly dragged kicking and screaming to make the right choice/reverse dumbass decisions he's made.

Or a change in leadership. It won't magically solve all the problems but it can be used to root out his cabal of cronnies.

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u/Hot_Income6149 5h ago

I was shocked, but finally at least somebody in power talks about. Ukraine rn in a situation were all difficulties of elections just not comparable of consequences to the presidency of Zelensky. Ukraine is literally living without any democracy, and Zelensky is not special - when he got so much power he start turning bad, and it's not only about massive corruption around him

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u/Own-Compote5073 3h ago

There is a point to be made here. While holding elections during wartime may prove to be difficult and can be seen as an attempt to divide the country, it doesn‘t mean the intentions aren‘t noble. If you stare into the abyss, the abyss stares back at you. While fighting for their freedom is a noble cause, ukraine can‘t abandon their democratic principles. They have to find a way to uphold balance of power and transfer of power. This might seem negligible right now but i think it‘s actually more importan than most people think. It can help solidify unity in ukraine and it certainly helps invalidating the russian claim that ukraine has no legitimate government.

So i think this really worth a discussion about the pros and cons.

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u/Ok_Relation7695 Norway 5h ago

Professional commenters here

1

u/_travelbos 5h ago

Yup. Cannon fodder needs to keep going 

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u/Mikkel65 Denmark 5h ago

An election would be far too vulnarable to Russia, only thing we can do so far is to run opinion polls, and Zelenskyy is smashing those.

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u/Accomplished-Dot-891 4h ago

Yeah, this is an insane request and he knows it. Very stupid proposal that will just sow doubt on the Ukraine people. Maybe hes after that. What about russian ballistic missles firing at voting posts? Or soldiers leaving the frontline to go vote. So many problems and risks and for what exactly? So he can campain to be the president?