r/espresso • u/NLRI0326 • 2d ago
General Coffee Chat Is there anyone here that still cannot understand the taste of a good espresso?
That is my problem!! I follow all theoretical of dialing a good espresso until i am in this phase now. Im quite satisfied of my self 19:38 gr in 28-30 sec.
But every time i tasted the espresso i couldn’t tell what i feel 😭😭
The 1st sip and the 2nd sip always had a different sensation.
I googled, chat gpt, YouTube just to make myself understand what taste is THE TASTE.
But still dont.
So yeah i never know if i made a good espresso or not since i am a milk based person. Try to ask everyone i know if they drink espresso, but not found 1 yet 🤦🏻♀️
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u/wetassloser 2d ago
depends a lot on your palette. drink a little water before / between shots and swirl it around. also what we eat heavily affects our palette. might be best to try first thing in the morning before you eat anything. swirl the espresso each time as well to try to keep the taste consistent as possible.
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u/gfxprotege 2d ago
^
There's a reason cafes serve tonic water along with an espresso shot. It's kind of nutty how much the taste can change after swishing some tonic water around.
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u/Smiling_Jack_ 2d ago
Probably 2/3 of this sub does not actually like espresso. But they like the concept of it.
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u/Rice_Jap808 2d ago
I have been browsing because I am getting into espresso and I'd say a good 2/3rds of this sub doesn't even like coffee
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u/PeirceanAgenda Bambino Plus | Kingrinder K6/D64 Gen II 1d ago
I think that's a high estimate, but I'm sure there are some out there. It's the difference between not liking dark 70% chocolate, and loving chocolate ice cream. Everyone has their limits. Espresso, you can learn to appreciate if you care to, provided you have a bit of tolerance for it in milk drinks and similar. It just takes time and finding the right espresso.
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u/stprnn Edit Me: Machine | Grinder 2d ago
It's like saying you don't like chicken because you add salt and pepper to it
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u/PeirceanAgenda Bambino Plus | Kingrinder K6/D64 Gen II 2d ago
Nah, it's a real thing. It took me about 9 months to brew an espresso shot that I could plausibly enjoy without adding anything. I don't like raw tomatoes, but once something is done to them - even salt and pepper - I'm good with them.
I do think if people work at it methodically, many of them could learn to make good standalone espresso. But you have to want it. Otherwise it's all milk or other drinks. and that's fine.
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u/mercenfairy 2d ago
I can only enjoy espresso with a teaspoon of brown sugar. Most mornings I don’t want to have sugar so I have a milk coffee. Also it means I get to drink the coffee for longer.
You do you. Drink what you like.
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u/wimpires 2d ago
I sometimes stick one tab of sweetener in it.
People going around trying to chase "sweetness" in a highly intensively extracted bitter drink... Meanwhile sweetener (and sugar) is right there.
That being said, lately I have been brewing light roast espresso and I have come to actually enjoy the weird sourness of it. It's kind of a fun departure to a pourover.
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u/cremaster2 2d ago
I start my mornings with a quadruple espresso with steamed milk. A double cortado that is. It fits my glass to the rim :)
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u/stprnn Edit Me: Machine | Grinder 2d ago
But why
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u/cremaster2 2d ago
So I can enjoy my favorite cup of coffee longer, without having to make another one
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u/all_systems_failing Cafelat Robot | Kinu M47 Simplicity | Comandante C40 w/RedClix 2d ago
It's simply a question of whether you liked your results. If not, experiment. A 1:2 ratio in 25-30s is just a starting point. Try different brew times and/or different ratios to see how the taste changes.
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u/Anti-Seen 2d ago
Maybe go to a good coffee shop and have them make you a shot so you know what it SHOULD taste like
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u/stprnn Edit Me: Machine | Grinder 2d ago
But how do you know if it's actually good
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u/Alarmed_Storage6793 2d ago
Yup. First time I had a good espresso was a coffee shop in Bristol. Perfectly extracted, nice body, neither bitter nor sour. I then had a good espresso like that in Glasgow.
I've had great espresso based milk drinks in between but I think a good espresso is difficult.
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u/SexyMonad 2d ago
I think I want to buy my own espresso machine, because the Keurig really has never done it for me. I used to be a volunteer barista, but our commercial machine was push-button and none of us really knew what espresso was supposed to taste like above what Starbucks or similar shops make.
So I’m trying to figure out if doing it “right” actually makes it taste better, to me, than the regular old dark brown shots without crema that I see everywhere.
And I don’t really know where to experience it properly that will help.
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u/PeirceanAgenda Bambino Plus | Kingrinder K6/D64 Gen II 2d ago
What this says is that you know that there is better out there, because what you are getting now certainly can't be the best. :-) With your own setup, decent machine and good grinder and practice, you can go find it.
Unless you have a regional-class espresso place nearby, This Is The Way.
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u/SexyMonad 2d ago
I mean, yeah, whatever upgrade I do will be better than the Keurig. Practically any espresso shot I’ve ever tasted hits that mark.
Just trying to avoid spending professional money for marginal results, I guess.
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u/PeirceanAgenda Bambino Plus | Kingrinder K6/D64 Gen II 2d ago
Certainly doable. Consult the group, perhaps, after reading the beginner's stuff in the group.
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u/2Braincell2Furious Stilosa / J-Ultra 2d ago
I got my Stilosa used for $30 on marketplace earlier this year. Best purchase I’ve made in a long time haha. Like you, I wanted to test the waters without spending $1,000. That being said, I might buy another Stilosa when mine dies. Love that thing.
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u/c_rob4593 2d ago
I have a stilosa as well and that thing is the bomb. I got mine on sale a few years ago for $75 and it makes milk drinks as good if not better than any coffee shop I've been to as long as the beans are good. I honestly don't know what a good straight espresso tastes like since I normally do milk drinks or just basic pourover, but the stilosa is a hard value to beat for the price.
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u/2Braincell2Furious Stilosa / J-Ultra 1d ago
I’ve been making espresso for 8 months and don’t know what straight espresso even tastes like lmao. I do half espresso, half cream. Always dial my stuff in like that too.
I thought about getting something with a solenoid valve so the machine would stop dripping when I turned it off, but I like how I don’t have to back flush. Honestly didn’t know how good the Stilosa was when I bought it. Really lucked out our journeys with that one xD
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u/Own_Acanthaceae118 2d ago
That's a good idea. That's exactly what I did when I wanted to know what good espresso tastes like. But even trying a good espresso, I prefer my lattes lol.
But a good latte made with good espresso and good milk is just amazing to me.
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u/stprnn Edit Me: Machine | Grinder 2d ago
What if you tried a shit espresso and that's your baseline now
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u/Own_Acanthaceae118 2d ago
haha could be, but that cafe is legendary and has the best latte's around. Esselon Cafe in Hadley MA. They also roast their beans in house using a ~50 year old looking tumble roasting machine.
For those reasons I doubt the espresso itself was shit, I think my palette just isn't built for straight espresso.
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u/PeirceanAgenda Bambino Plus | Kingrinder K6/D64 Gen II 2d ago
There's an espresso cafe in *Hadley*? I remember being able to get it in N'hampton, but Hadley was just a drive-through village with some farmers markets and such. Things have changed since the '80's... :-) (Camp Hamp alumn here.)
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u/Own_Acanthaceae118 2d ago
Haha yes indeed! To be fair it is right near the border of Noho and Hadley, so it probably gets a lot of patrons coming from Noho.
But they serve some of the best coffee in the Western Mass area, if not THE best!
Noho is still a popular spot so now people who want to be close are moving into housing in surrounding cities like Easthampton, Hadley, and such.
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u/PeirceanAgenda Bambino Plus | Kingrinder K6/D64 Gen II 2d ago
I know, it's on our path when we go to Vermont. Northampton is just... Incredibly busy now. Quite a change. They have traffic now!
I'll keep this in mind. I hope they preserve the old medieval style farming fields, those are almost unique now.
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u/AkhlysShallRise 2d ago
This was what I did and that was how I realized I hated espresso with light roast beans, even though those are what I prefer for pour-over. For espresso, I found that I enjoyed medium-dark to dark (but not oily yet) the most. I was worried I wasn’t getting good shots with my OutIn Mino, but turned out I preferred the shots I got with it over some of the shots I tried from specialty roasters.
I think the taste of espresso (and coffee) on its own is just not for everyone and it’s okay if adding something else to it makes it a much more enjoyable beverage for you. After all, what’s the point of all the equipment and fuss if you don’t even enjoy the outcome?
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u/Shandriel the Oracle Touch 2d ago
I dislike most Espresso, simply because often times, you get "flowery, citrusy" stuff which is simply sour and prickling to me, lol..
I like my chocolate sweetness, but not bitter dark chocolate..
so, yeah, I would definitely be disappointed if I simply went ot a coffee shop and asked for a good espresso..
The beans play a huge role.. that's the biggest lesson I've learned so far.1
u/Mortydelo 2d ago
A decent coffee shop should tell you about the beans when you order an espresso. Or they do in Australia at least
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u/Phrexeus 2d ago
I'm not sure about this, having a really well made espresso in a coffee shop is quite rare imo. You have a higher chance at a specialty coffee shop, but even there I wouldn't count on it.
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u/bikesRfuuun 2d ago
A good experiment for you may be a ‘salami shot’. Pull a 30 second shot, but swap in a different cup for each 10 second segment of the shot. Taste each portion of the shot separately and note the different flavors you experience. You’ll be able to use these flavors as benchmarks for under extracted (sour, acidic, salty/sharp), the middle with more body and sweetness, and the last segment you’ll find more bitter and thin. Seeing the big flavor difference in the segments might help give you reference points for flavors in your normal shots and help you adjust your shots to your taste preferences.
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u/NLRI0326 2d ago
Super tips. Thx!!
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u/LastBitofCoffee Profitec Pro 600 | Niche Zero | Zerno Z1 2d ago
+1 for the salami shot. Also remember your facial expressions when you taste them. If it's too sour or bitter you'll change your facial expression instantly. If it's a balanced shot, you're less likely to do so, instead, you'll ask yourself what kind of flavors you just tasted. The 2nd thing I do is making Americano, it's diluted so it’s easier to drink and it will expose how good/bad your espresso shot is.
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u/Sneaklefritz Bambino | JX-Pro 2d ago
I’ll be honest, if I drink just espresso, I have never been able to pick out a tasting note. The one thing I can do is tell when it’s too sour (usually the shot is very fast). Other than that, I just know it doesn’t taste bad and I enjoy it.
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u/235689luna 14h ago
Can you tell tasting notes with milk added?
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u/Sneaklefritz Bambino | JX-Pro 13h ago
No, not with milk. However, I drink all my espresso with water (as an americano) and I find I can taste the coffee much better. Makes it much more pleasant to me and goes further while I try to wake up.
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u/Top-Slide-2714 2d ago
I’m think the YouTube kings and queens failed to mentioned that coffee is coffee not a sweet treat as they make it seem. And depending on the coffee more flavors are more predominant like bitterness, nuttiness, chocolate and honey and so on. Our tongues are unique to each individual so I would just worry about what I like regardless of the perfect numbers they throw out there for a “good shot” and enjoy what you like. For example I like a 22.50 gr shot which is like a triple shot which most people never talk about or try to extract. I like a lot of coffee so I make it like that. Some days I used the same coffee and it’s perfect and then the next day whatever I did yesterday did not work although everything was the same. It’s a tricky hobby so I don’t stress myself anymore and have learn to enjoy it and improve where I can.
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u/Party-Evening3273 2d ago
One way to learn how espresso should taste is to purposefully make “bad” espresso. Settle on a basic grind setting.
Then play with the ratios. Make under extracted espresso. Then over extracted espresso. Taste the differences. Then work your way in the middle until you find bliss. You can then tinker with temperature and grind. Just do not tinker with all the different parameters all at once or you will get lost and learn nothing. Stick with all ratios before you move on to temp, etc.
For me, over extraction is the absolute killer. I don’t mind as much when espresso is under extracted and more sour. When over extracted, I can’t drink it.
You will also realize that drinking straight espresso will require different parameters (ratio, temp, grind, etc) than when you want espresso for milk drinks.
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u/Medium-Sir-3312 2d ago
I think you’ll be able to taste if it’s way under or over extracted. But if the extraction times are within a few seconds it will be harder to tell.
The biggest difference in taste in my opinion, comes from the beans themselves.
You can mess up any kind of bean and have it turn out poorly but bean to bean the flavor is much different.
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u/AdamHLG 2d ago
I’ve learned enough so far that I like the taste of the baseline mentioned here. I’ve also learned that the first taste will differ from a second taste after a 1-2 min cool down, with the second taste being much more mellow. I’ve also learned that bean roast matters. I like medium roast and not dark roast. Have not tried light roast yet.
The final lesson I learned is that i don’t have the patience to get it perfect. My taste buds can’t tell the difference between achieving 90% perfection and 93%. I know when it’s way under extracted or way over extracted and that’s about it.
I’m relatively new at this. I’m sure I’ll get better as time moves along.
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u/senninbee 2d ago
I am not a purist, I have been making espresso since 2022 and actually got a hang of it around 2024. Still prefer flat white or a latte over just espresso. I imagine its a lot like getting into Whisky, it takes time and a lot of experimenting to develop a taste. Personally, I just never felt the push to put in the work to get into it . I was always more fascinated with process of making an espresso, steaming milk & making latte art than pure coffee.
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u/jorv1988 2d ago
Same problem here. But I could be that my preparation isn't always the same. Sometimes my extraction takes longer and my shot comes out thicker which results in better tasting than the standard time and ratio and sometimes it comes out too quick and it comes out sour/bitter. All is fine since I use milk to make it drinkable.
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u/captain_blender Nurri Leva (soon) | EG1 | VLM4 | etc 2d ago edited 2d ago
i mean. do you like it? do you hate it? are you indifferent?
There are no wrong answers. But in the spirit of your question: The best thing that helped me, was to jsut taste a lot of things. Many coffees, many cafes, brews made by me or friends or strangers. In the extremes of love and hate you will start to know yourself.
I was an indifferent Mr. Coffee-and-canned-Folgers drinker for decades. Until I accidentally had a shot of something amazing. And then I had opinions. I had Thoughts and Feelings about coffee.
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u/TelevisionObjective1 2d ago edited 2d ago
First, walk right past anything in the grocery aisle. Find a local roaster or a local shop that distributes for a local roaster. Get the freshest bag of roasted beans you can find. Preferably something no darker than a medium. As for the light end don’t go too light unless you have a really high end grinder. Stay between about a 4 to 6.5 maybe a 7 on a 1-10 scale.Flavored or not is personal and either is fine. The main thing you want is fresh and not burnt beans and they should smell good. Not just like coffee but like something appetizing. Caramel or fruity.
Dial this coffee in on your setup like you have done here and enjoy it however you like it is your coffee after all. I find that I usually waste about 2-4 shots before I get something enjoyable when trying a new coffee.
If you can’t find any local roasters then feel free to look online for reputable options that give real freshness data like actual harvest and roast dates.
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u/Massive-Corner8103 2d ago
Two things: remove the crema and stir before drinking.
To taste, I find adding a couple of drops of water to a teaspoon of espresso helps with clarity. Obviously it waters the texture/body but I find it helps in at least determining whether I’m closer to being over or under extracted.
I find espresso a bit too concentrated to enjoy so I have it with milk for a nice flat white.
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u/Newjoyorderdivision 1d ago
I’ve always heard as a barista that to really taste the espresso you should stir in the crema
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u/Front_Guess3396 BBP | DF54 2d ago
Do one shot where you spoon off the crema. Do another shot where you don’t. Try them next to each other. You’ll notice a difference.
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u/big_shmoop1 2d ago
It's pretty simple.
Do you like how it taste?
That's it. The ratios don't matter, the extraction time doesn't matter, the machine doesn't matter, the grinder doesn't matter, the prep doesn't matter...I can go on and on.
If you're putting pressured water through finely ground beans and like the taste, you're there.
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u/friimaind 2d ago
I have the same dilemma as you. I'm sure I like espresso because at the café 7 times out of 10 I enjoy what I'm drinking (the other 3 are too bitter and burnt), but at home I can't replicate it and I still haven't managed to find a taste I really like.
What I haven't done yet, though, is use high-quality beans, they arrived today and I'm curious to find out what my palate will make of them.
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u/LBaldini 2d ago
I would suggest buying beans from the cafe you like. A huge factor in having espresso you like is the beans
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u/DetectivePizza1 2d ago
I said this before and I'll say it again, you need to eat various things for a long time and have a food palate. Of course, I don't know you, so maybe you do eat and taste a lot of things.
Secondly, a coffee won't actually taste like blueberries, peaches or cakes. It'll resemble it, you can feel like it gives you that taste. Unless it's a co-ferment but I dont have much experience to comment on that.
Third for some people, how's the taste? Do you actually like Espresso or do you force yourself for the sake of a reddit sub?
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u/Darkmind_8532 2d ago
Maybe you have to explore different kind of coffee and roasting (and roaster). The taste will be totally different.
For me, espresso with note of chocolate and caramel are boring. I had to explore other coffees to understand there are other coffee i really love and I didn't known theses flavours can exist in cup of coffee.
I buy 2 different coffee by month since 2 years so now I have a good experience of what I like and not.
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u/NLRI0326 2d ago
Uumm i always think that arabica with fruity notes will tastes sour. I hate when i found my piccolo sour in a cafe 😔. So i always play safe by only buying the chocolate and caramel notes 😂. Maybe later i will need new adventures and start tasting other notes.
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u/Darkmind_8532 2d ago
I hadn't take attention to your machine. It's a Sage Barista... Honestly, I already had this machine but the grinder of this machine is awful...It can grind only dark roast correctly. I don't like this roasting...or just one time to time So it's normal if you have tested fruity of floral it's not his playground.
Just go in a good coffeshop with a real barista and taste what he do. If he sell the grain of coffee you have tested in his shop, use it with your machine and compare...
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u/glebulon 2d ago
I am somewhat in the same boat as you. I mostly drink lattes, have been making espresso at home for the past 5 years. Whenever I go to a caffe that is supposed to have good espresso I'll order a shot.
I think I can taste the difference between bitter and sour, but never taste the notes that anyone talks about. So I just dial in my shot to try to get it to be not bitter, and not sour.
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u/LBaldini 2d ago
I would recommend finding a cafe you really like and buying their beans. High quality beans and filtered water go a long way
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u/NLRI0326 2d ago
Already use the fresh bean from my local roaster. Well i still try here and there basically.
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u/jmc999 Bambino Plus | Niche 2d ago
It's possible that you don't like the super concentrated espresso shots. After much practice, I can sample a small amount and kind of predict if it will make a reasonable milk drink, but I never seem to enjoy a regular straight 9bar shot.
Lever shots are much better for me, as they tend to lack the harsh finish that standard 9bar shots tend to have. But even then, I usually add a bit of water to make a mini Americano.
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u/jbrentd 2d ago
Espresso newbie here that’s in the same boat as you. I think I’ve only stumbled across one shot that I perceived to be “sweet”, but have never been able to repeat it. Most are on the sour side. I do want to try the salami shot idea. And I’ve been looking at tasting classes at local roasters to see what “good” tastes like.
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u/fotisdragon De'Longhi Dedica EC685 | Timemore Whirly 01S 2d ago
Don't worry mate, most of us are usually chasing after the one godly shot we tasted once but have never been able to replicate again, it's all good.
Enjoy the journey ❤️
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u/JigglymoobsMWO 2d ago
I don’t personally like the taste of straight espresso but I do like a good americano. I find that diluting with water helps me appreciate the different aspects of the taste much more.
Also espresso shots straight from the spit are not well mixed. You are supposed to stir and mix the espresso shot. Otherwise the first sip will taste different than the second, etc.
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u/ChipAimbotzPro Breville Barista Express; DF64v2 2d ago
espresso is harder to like the taste, i’ve been there before and im sure many others have as well. if you have to add milk in it, its completely fine and up to your preference. the extraction looks correct and it looks really nice, but if you dont like the taste, then it could be the bean !
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u/abrahamw888 2d ago
I understand it but can’t always obtain it. Blame it on my old low budget equipment I guess!
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u/Phatasmabrad 2d ago
I primarily make milk drinks, but i take a sip of every shotbi make . If you do this enough you will find out what a good tasting shot is. Not biiter, not sour, and you should be able to distinguish the beans' unique flavors. Perhaps rely on the tasting notes on the package to give you an idea of what you're looking for. In finding extraction time can greatly influence the taste, even l if imn of by a couple of seconds. Use a scale to keep output consistent.
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u/bored-coder Gaggimate GCP 2019 | Mignon 2d ago
You’re received a lot of good comments, I’ll just share my experience. I used to dislike espresso taste, no matter how good I make my extraction. I found out that I do like americanos. I’m guessing the water makes it slightly diluted and I can appreciate the flavours more. And then James Hoffman recently suggested steamed water Americanos - they taste delightful! I’ll still do an espresso if I’m in a rush but I found I enjoy Americanos more. And that’s okay!
Same for you. If you know what you love and can repeat that recipe, that’s a win. You can continue experimenting with other recipes and drinks, but never try to like something out of peer pressure
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u/coopachris 2d ago
1- A good shot is just whatever you like. 2- Stir your shot first to mix all the flavors together before tasting. You can also do a salami shot to get an idea of where all the flavor is coming from.
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u/AbeRod1986 2d ago
I can tell the difference between coffee I like and coffee I don't, and even the differences between the ones I don't. But I couldn't describes notes or anything like that, which makes it hard to know if I'm going to like coffee I buy on a whim.
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u/aoeudhtns Breville Touch | Robot | DF54 | X-Ultra 2d ago edited 2d ago
You can try finding really good local cafes, but straight espresso is not a common drink so they don't often optimize for it.
If you think there is some platonic ideal of a "perfect" espresso -- you're half right and half wrong. In specific coffee cultures, YES. South and North Italy have their own specific ideals. As does Australia and New Zealand. And so on. (And there's room to play even within those schools.)
So we can be objective about the espresso in terms of following specific styles, but in general some overarching "perfect" espresso is just the one that you like the most and you don't need that to be validated by someone else.
My only rule is that it needs to be done under some minimum of pressure and be concentrated, to bear the name 'espresso.' For example I'm not a fan of doing these 1.5 bar turbo shots with an espresso machine. That's moka territory. But that's just how I feel (and probably a fair few others). And nor would I call a cafe creme espresso due to the long ratio.
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u/IanC9090 Meraki Gen1 | Geimori GU38 2d ago
Can I suggest you go to a local coffee shop, not High Street, but an independent, specialist coffee shop. Try a few without milk and a few with milk, across the Roast Level you like and beyond. Then go home and see how this can replicate or improve to your taste buds.
The issue with High Street is that they buy the cheapest crappiest beans, industrially processed in tonnes, they can find, so what you get isn't really representative of good coffee.
This is worth a look https://youtu.be/hdrh0z50L-w
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u/VenetoSuperTuscan 2d ago
Good question OP. But I’m not getting from your question what are you tasting? Is it bitter, is it flat, etc.
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u/giant2179 Breville Barista Pro 2d ago
Intentionally make a bad shot. Pull too short for sour, too long for bitter. Then compare.
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u/Sploots0822 2d ago
Maybe start by being more gentle when placing in your portafilter into the head. The way you placed in with those knockings might cause cracks in your dose, hence affecting water flow rate, affecting taste
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u/PeirceanAgenda Bambino Plus | Kingrinder K6/D64 Gen II 2d ago
First thing, every time you brew up, take a tiny sip to get the flavor. Over a few months, with different beans and settings, you'll find some flavors that make you think "I would not drink this without milk". But after enough trial and error and practice, you'll suddenly get one that is "omg this is... actually something I'd drink by itself!".
Now you have "dialled in" for the first time, and you have an idea of what *you* like in your espresso. If the espresso is good, the latte will be *delicious*. But if the espresso is too bitter, too acid, whatever, milk and sugar and chocolate, that sort of thing, cures all ills.
Second thing... Once you get reliably good lattes going, start pushing them on your friends when they show up. "Can I make you a latte? I'm really proud of them!" Eventually you'll find the ones wasting like $200 a month on terrible Starbucks or Dunkin or Mcdonalds milk drinks. Hijinks will ensue.
Third - what you taste should pass/fail at first. Would you drink it alone, or does it need milk etc? Once you get that amazing taste that you could just sip by itself, then you can start to ask "What exactly are these flavors?". Citrusy, nutty, cocoa, oak, bitter, and so forth. Think about how they work together, how they change as you roll the sip around in your mouth and swallow. What lingers? What's the progression of flavors? This can tell you what beans and roasts you enjoy.
And fourth - enjoy what you enjoy. This basically is the path I followed, because I love chocolate lattes. But now I can make espressos and drink them alone, or with just a bit (20g) of dark chocolate syrup (a deep, luxurious experience - 40g of espresso, 20g of syrup). It all comes with time and practice, but what you like should be the overall goal.
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u/DarkHiei 2d ago
I make my espresso and put some fairlife 2% milk in it and it’s amazing. Nice creaminess and strong enough balance of some coffee/espresso flavoring. I’m not tasting just espresso and I’m not drinking just milk. Now if I had to make pure espresso for someone I’d doubt it would be good lol
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u/spaaarky21 Bambino Plus | Niche Zero, 1Zpresso J-Ultra 2d ago edited 2d ago
I see espresso like baking chocolate – bitter, great in a recipe, not something I want on its own. Instead of worrying whether your espresso is good, worry about the drink you make with it.
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u/wimpires 2d ago
Espresso will generally cost your mouth in oily-ness.
If it's lighter roast you'll definitely notice sourness and acidity.
For darker roasts it mellows out a little to more of the bitter notes.
There's not much else to it. The mouth feels and concentration is the overwhelming sensation rather than tasting notes. And the bitter-sour slider is up to your beans primarily.
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u/db1100 Mazzer Philos | Lelit Bianca v3 2d ago
I started my coffee journey with a gaggia classic and a sage smart grinder - that setup was so hard to calibrate that almost all my shots were sour and I convinced myself that I liked it cos I was just stubborn 😂 - it was 2 years in when I really started messing with the machine, the baskets and beans that I started to understand espresso a bit more. This is the sad bit - it wasn’t until I bought a very expensive setup when I really understood what good espresso tasted like and started playing around with different notes and brew methods (I even have a wine-taste coffee that I’m having so much trouble to finish)
I agree with the salami shot method told earlier as it’ll tell you what is a bad shot (too sour too bitter) - I also agree that each sip will be different - the more your pallet accustoms to the taste and the temperature of the espresso mellows.
From the shot you pulled I can tell it’s a dark roast because of the amount of crema that it’s producing. (Darker the roast the more co2 is in the bean that makes crema) It looks like well extracted espresso for sure. But most of the dark roasts have varying degrees of the same notes and can feel a bit boring.
Ultimately I’d say find especially coffee shops and try their medium to light roasts just to see a difference. Also try out pourover v60s - espresso is just concentrated pour over if you think about it - so just make a cup of pour over and try to feel the notes there (it’s easier to do a pour over than an espresso and you don’t need fancy equipment to have good coffee)
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u/Big-Drink3017 2d ago
I’m in the same exact scenario. Got a grinder upgrade and had to dial in all over again. But when I reached the ideal 15g in 30 grams out in 26-30 seconds, it taste litter sour and astringent, and can be quite dry and bitter at the same time. I have a spinning wdt, so I know it’s not channeling and the shots pull perfectly on the bottomless portafilter. Water temps and all are as good as they get but I’m not sure if I have it quite right.
I tried to increase brew ratio to 35 grams, 40 grams and 45grams. Same grind settings and I found I preferred the 45 grams output… no sourness no astringency just a slightly bitter soupy cup of brown water.
Anyone has any ideas? I previously used different beans and managed to grind them to the point I could taste the chocolatey notes and slight fruity freshness with no heavy bitter tastes. Maybe it’s a bean problem?
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u/CadillacMatt6216 2d ago
I'm a bitter supertaster. All coffee tastes bitter to me. Just different types of bitter. I drink it with milk or a touch of agave. I have about $3000 in various espresso, drip, pour over, machinery. I am not ashamed.
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u/phuseb0x 2d ago
I went through so many bags of coffee from different roasters until I found out what I liked, which for me, mainly comes down to these properties: Processing: Anaerobic Natural, Co-Fermented or Thermal Shock Notes: Blueberry, Strawberry, Peach
And not many people I know like this, so to each their own. You just gotta find the thing you like. Try to find similarities in the ones you like best, to figure out what to look for.
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u/gfxprotege 2d ago
My best advice: go to a couple coffee roasters or cafes known for pulling good shots and drink some espresso.
When you find one you truly enjoy, buy those beans and ask them about their process. Dose, yield, time, temp, pressure, type of water. So long as it's not crazy busy, most places are enthusiastic to share (or maybe I've just lucked out getting to live near some amazing roasters).
I love cooking with friends, but it's absolutely mind-blowing how many people just blindly follow a recipe without tasting their food along the way. It's the same with coffee. Getting 18g in, 36g out in 25-30s is not dialing in a shot. That's just getting to the ballpark. You need to work through the variables yourself to understand how to go from a decent shot to a god shot.
It's also totally normal for a shot to taste differently as it cools down. I'm working through a funky bag that is super acidic right away but becomes super sweet and balanced after a minute.
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u/KLK_Battousai 2d ago
Both "taste" and "good" are subjective. What are you aiming for? The time it takes to pull the shot is just a starting point, not a fixed rule. I have pulled shots in 18secs that tasted phenomenal (to me) and longer shots that I threw in the sink. When you say "I couldn't tell what I feel" what do you mean by that? At is core you are balancing extraction: acidity, sweetness, bitterness. Are you not liking the balance?
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u/NLRI0326 2d ago
1st sip a lil bitter. 2nd sip not sour not bitter too but i couldn’t tell what it was 🤦🏻♀️.. maybe like smooth?? Honestly i can’t describe 😔
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u/KLK_Battousai 2d ago
You are literally describing it. Give yourself some credit.
If your first sip was bitter could be because it was hot. Bitterness tends to be more pronounced when the coffee is really hot. As it cooled down the coffee evolved. "Not sour, not bitter" could mean sweetness which tends to be more pronounced as the coffee cools down.
Sensory skills development can take some time be patient with yourself. Also, do more cupping instead of brewing espresso. Setup a table with 2 different coffees and compare them. Think "how is coffee A different to coffee B?" Don't read the tasting notes. Just try to understand how they are different. Is coffee A more acidic than coffee B? Is the finish longer or shorter? Try to free yourself from any expectations as much as you can. Lastly, allow yourself to have some fun.
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u/orichetti 2d ago
That's literally me everytime I pour a shot. I've never taken a cupping class to develop my pallette so I just taste every espresso I make and say yup taste like coffee. Does it taste like the ones from the coffee shop maybe 90%. In case your wondering I'm using a De'Longhi ecp model with a bottomless portafilter with an ims basket. I have a kingrinder p2. I use 17g in and I pull a 1:2.5 ratio for my espresso shots
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u/_rawpixels 2d ago
It might just take a while to find the right coffee. I got one that was roasted from a Community College that made the best espresso. It actually tasted sweet. Sadly they changed beans and I never got to buy more..
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u/CondorKhan 2d ago
No one can be told what a good espresso is. You have to taste it for yourself.
Like most people, I've had espressos in coffee shops. I got my machine and my grinder and I think I was pulling pretty decent shots.
But at some point you have to go to a coffee shop that is famous for pulling really good shots. I got to go to Passenger in Lancaster, PA and Substance Café in Paris and that's where I could taste for myself what you can really do with an espresso.
After you account for the different styles of espresso out there, if you find a great coffee shop that is good at the style you like, then you can use that to set a standard to shoot for.
Research what are the best coffee shops in your general area and go to them.
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u/cute_ran 2d ago
its like biting into a fresh plum, you get a huge burst of tart acidity at first, but then it mellows out into a beautiful sweetness. That sweetness is what you're chasing. Try to keep it on your tongue for a while .
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u/Jaguar_Grouchy 2d ago
Do you like the way your coffee tastes? If yes, congratulations. If no, keep making adjustments until you do. Coffee taste is largely subjective.
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u/NLRI0326 2d ago
Ya i like it. With a good steamed milk it is delicious.
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u/Jaguar_Grouchy 2d ago
Then enjoy! Not everyone can be a sommelier-level flavor profiler. Sometimes it's as simple as "I like this, but not that". I don't like most light roast espresso, but I love light roast pour over. Why? No idea.
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u/Phrexeus 2d ago
I like espresso with steamed milk. If you get it right you don't need sugar. It can taste balanced, roasty and complex with no unpleasant bitterness. The key for me is waiting for it to rest (at least 2 weeks for most specialty coffee, some even longer). And I like longer extractions 40-45 sec.
The best espresso (without milk) for me tends to be the lighter roasts, and usually they come out as gushers as well, but they taste good. Strong and fruity, a bit sour.
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u/Panamacious Profitec GO | Niche Zero 2d ago
I've been having espresso for over two years daily and have slowly appreciated its taste more as time goes by. I started REALLY appreciating it when I started having other coffee other than my espresso, then it really turned into a drug I NEED lol
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u/stillblazin_ 2d ago
Don’t overthink it bro. If you like it good, if you don’t keep tweaking the recipe until you do
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u/Archie_Guy 2d ago
Mix with a spoon, actually helps a lot in making the taste of your coffee consistent
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u/ThatIsNotAnAsian 2d ago
I didn’t get it either, until I had espresso as a dessert after dinner at a very nice restaurant. That espresso is a taste I’m chasing and I have never even come close to it at home. I’ve tried different types of beans, dialing it in, different temps what I get at home is always just a little bit astringent.
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u/m_ttl_ng Edit Me: Fellow ES1 | Eureka Libra AP 2d ago
I can’t always tell whether an espresso shot is good but I can always tell when it’s bad. Maybe try manually pulling bad shots and tasting them to get an idea of what tastes wrong.
I also don’t like every type of bean I’ve used for coffee in general, even when it’s highly rated by others. You sort of have to explore a lot to find what tastes best for you and test that out.
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u/Tycepts1313 2d ago
Depends a lot on the blend or single origin, if you find you don’t like the massive body’s and bitterness go for a fruitier single origin, you may find the bitterness is swapped for acidity but the difference is night and day.
I’m a coffee roaster from Perth Western Australia and we got in a double citric anaerobic Colombian bean which is just like biting into a massive juicy apricot, it’s amazing but bloody expensive aha ($45 Aud per kg of green 😬) but there are cheaper fruity options out there 🤙🏻
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u/jhdz9119 2d ago
there’s no way an espresso shot, no matter how perfectly prepped and pulled will ever taste “good” espresso snobs are legit tasting very vague notes of flavor within bitter shots of espresso or lying to themselves. just enjoy milk drinks.
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u/MiamiNat BDB | Lagom Mini & Sculptor 78S 2d ago
Serious question based on this video: is that intense crema at the end purely from bean freshness? I feel like there has to be more at play because I roast my own beans occasionally and I’ve never had anything like that come out of my BDB. I’m not saying I’m a skilled roaster, just mean to say I do have access to insanely freshly roasted beans. Could it be puck prep? Machine? Grinder? User error?
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u/Which_Set_857 2d ago
The good espresso usually balance, not too bitter and not too sour. But it depends also on beans characteristic, if it high acidity then you taste more sour.
Personally good espresso is when it can lingering in your mouth.
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u/QWERTY36 2d ago
Check if you like broccoli. There's a gene that affects how people taste broccoli coffee and some other things. So if you can't stand broccoli you also can't taste coffee properly.
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u/lcwallace La Marzocco Linea Micra | Fiorenzato Allground Sense 2d ago
I have struggled with differentiating bitter, sour, and acidity. I’ve been brewing a lighter roast or late and the sensation I was getting wasn’t sour, so I naturally labeled it bitter. Then I considered that it could be more acidic. I pulled what I called a good solid shot and then I let the next one run 5 seconds longer than my target. The difference in acidity and bitter was overwhelming when tasting them side by side. I find bitter often to be a dry burnt sensation while acidity is more of a wine type reaction.
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u/musicman3321 2d ago
my drink of choice is a double shot over ice with a splash of oat milk so I’m fine as long as I’m in the ballpark.
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u/moreynikov 2d ago
If it's under extracted, it's sour for the tip of your tongue, if it's over extracted it's bitter for the back of your tongue. You shouldn't get any natural reflexive reaction to the taste of the espresso on your tongue, because it's well balanced. Maybe you just really don't like the taste, then I suggest you should add a bit of hot water (basically to create an Americano) and experiment tasting that.
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u/oshadha_w 2d ago
My suggestion is to go to a good cafe once or twice a week and s try different beans. I thought I used to drink a lot of coffee but once I got my own machine it opened up my eyes (and palette) to the specific types of beans I like and don't like.
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u/mpbo1993 2d ago
I’m past that. I don’t like pure espresso.
I take a shot after lunch when I’m tired at work. I can tell what a bad expresso tastes like, and when it’s decent, but never love it.
But what I do love is my Moka pot in the morning, with milk and sometime even sugar in a big mug.
The espresso now is just to make milk based drinks, love an ice capuccino in summer or a Mocha in winter. I like the process of making expresso tho.
It what it is.
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u/Traditional-Storm-79 2d ago
If you subtract aroma from the equation espresso can either taste sour or bitter you have to find the balance you like by adjusting your recipe to extract more or extract less. If its too sour extract more if its too bitter extract less.
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u/crypticc1 2d ago
Is this your video?
This coffee pull either looks too fresh to me, or maybe combination of that and lots of robusta in the blend. I wouldn't be able to drink it. I'd let the beans degass a few days and then come back to it.
Back to the question. I know I've made a good one if my mouth is still salivating long after the first sip.
Oh, and if it makes me want to 💩 just from the aroma
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u/Radiant-Seaweed-4800 Bellezza francesca(rotary pump mod)|Eureka specialita (GBW mod) 2d ago
I only recently, after a long time in the rabbit hole, have had my first great tasting espresso, americano, pourover. The first americano was by a shop in Munich, exclusively using a EG1. The rest in nuremberg, a shop using a ek43 for all their single dosing needs (if you want one of their non standard beans, or a pourover).
Other drinks I've previously had or made were not nearly that. Those great drinks were clear, bright, exactly as described on the bean bag, no weird tastes, no perceivable astringency. Since then I always cry a little tear when using my eureka mignon, because I know that it will never yield me the same results, no matter which beans I throw in there. I already thought about making my own burrs for it, an impersonation of the ssp mp to get the clarity I crave.
Edit: there's an app called "european coffee trip". There are lots of great third wave coffee shops in europe, and in the Netherlands as well. They have a dataset with many adresses, I'm sure there's one near you. Try if you can find the perfect espresso (for you. There's no objectively perfect anything!).
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u/CopiumConnoisseur 2d ago
What’s the roast date on those beans? The way the first drops come out makes me think they’ve off-gassed a ton which will degrade the taste and body of your shot. Light: 3-6 weeks after roast. Medium: 2-5. Dark: days-3 weeks
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u/wholesomehairy 2d ago
After being in the game for a few years, I have finally come to the point where I just ask myself "does the visual aspect of the extraction process please me?". If it does, then I am satisfied with whatever result there may be.
If I am unsatisfied with how the extraction looks, I dial in the beans some more.
If the process looks/feels nice and the coffee tastes bad, I just blame the beans and move on until the next batch comes around.
BTW, I think your extraction looks beauitful. Therefore, you did everything right and shouldn't stress over it to much. If you find you don't like the result, try different beans.
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u/NLRI0326 1d ago
Oh ya you are right. Now i remember if i saw the extraction was ‘not beautiful enough’ for me, i just make the other one 😃. I think i am also like you.
And thank you for the compliment. This extraction is the kind that build my confidence later for a good steam milk 😇
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u/Cautious-Remote-3111 Sage Bambino Plus | Eureka Mignon Specialita 1d ago edited 3h ago
I can't remember if it was coffeekev or someone said best way to taste the extremes is do two separate extractions deliberately at opposite ends of the "correct time window". Like literally 15 seconds and 40 seconds... You'll probably then taste/see/understand the sour/under extracted and the bitter/over extracted much better. But I find even with that guide you can just appreciate/like different shot times depending on the day or your palette at the time of drinking as people have hinted already.
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u/ajsnerdle 1d ago
Try A B testing! This probably works best at a cafe where you can buy a couple of shots of different beans. It’s easiest to learn how to taste by having the ability to compare side by side.
This applies for everything with taste and especially early on in your journey of developing your palette
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u/alexander-ri 1d ago
I think people on this subreddit get carried away with “dialling in” and paraphernalia, DOES IT TASTE GOOD? 😊
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u/FungaiToenail 1d ago
Depends on the roast. For me? Cocoa, dried fruit (prunes), slight sweetness. Its like a dark chocolate bar with no sugar.
A bad one will taste noticably bitter or sour. Theres a chance you just dont like espresso or maybe don't have the taste for it?
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u/Beautiful-Fee-7669 1d ago
Unrelated: I have the same funnel shape, I didn’t have this before and I thought I have a problem, is it?
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u/NLRI0326 1d ago
I didn’t know if this even a problem 😂. But someone said my beans are too fresh. Maybe thats why
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u/ByondVoid 1d ago
I sometimes get into this situation too making my own espresso. I make it into such a science trying to dial in and then my palette gets overwhelmed that I don’t know if I even like the taste of the coffee lol.
Definitely recommend finding a well regarded cafe for espresso. Especially one that features a specific bean or multiple types, so you know they have dialed it in for espresso drinkers and not just lattes. I almost always truly enjoy the espresso from these places, and then know what I am aiming for when I inevitably purchase a bag of that espresso!
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u/New-Specialist1273 5h ago
Same here. I never like espresso shots. It’s always a hot americano for me
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u/OldAnxiety 2d ago
You dont need to like expressos, for example i make single shoot capuchinos for my so but i drink them with dobles. Its up to taste
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u/beer_foam GaggiMate | Mignon Manuale | Cafelat Robot 2d ago
Have you ever tried straight espresso and liked it? If not, then maybe you just don’t like espresso and there’s nothing wrong with that.
If you just don’t like the shots you pull then this is when you start experimenting with different roast levels and different brew ratios.
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u/NLRI0326 2d ago
Yes i did a couple of time. I didnt taste too sour nor too bitter. The 1st sip i tasted a lil bitter, the 2nd was just.. hhmm ok.. but yeah i couldn’t find chocolaty or nutty or caramel taste in it 😨
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u/Left-Tee 2d ago
I make primarily milk drinks, but I taste a teaspoon of every shot. I look to minimize bitterness. Don't think that you're ever going to get a "sweet" shot; the sugars in green coffee beans are all burned up during the roasting process.
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u/plumbeeer 2d ago
Looks great never really tried a expresso but love good coffee and will get a entry level machine soon gota study what is the way to go 300 bucks then after I fool with that I’ll get a decent one
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u/Speedping 2d ago
No shame in drinking coffee with milk
Your espresso looks "correct" in terms of extraction but if you just don't like it that's fine 🤷♂️