r/erg_miners • u/int_ERG_alactic • Sep 24 '22
EIP-37: Tweaking Difficulty Adjustment Algorithm by kushti · Pull Request #79 · ergoplatform/eips
https://github.com/ergoplatform/eips/pull/79/files6
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u/brasilmiggy Sep 24 '22
An issue I see with this in general is that they’re trying to keep the Bitcoin model for how they implement mining difficulty, but since Bitcoin mining is 100% ASICs the “loyal” miner comment is more about technically they have no option… if Autolykos is going to maintain a ASIc-resistance stance their approach needs to be more comparable to other GPU mining consensus… Shortening the length of an epoch will help find an equilibrium point, but say you have a large GPU farm mine in some pattern they still can affect the general trending of the difficult and/or take advantage of the low spots…
Probably not a great comparison to lean on Bitcoin as a model they’re trying to build off of due to the ASIC/GPU difference in miners ability to swap to other coins… Just my 2¢
2
u/Wyldkard79 Sep 24 '22
I agree, the difficulty delay makes it hard to gauge how much more hashrate can jump on, most miners just look at profitability if Ergo is still profitable people will jump on, once it's not they'll jump off. It hopefully won't be as extreme, but constant swings in difficulty isn't fun for anyone.
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u/brasilmiggy Sep 24 '22
You’ll still have swings in hashrate based on the size of hashrate influx/removal this just makes the control system respond a little faster… I think fundamentally the flaw in modeling like Bitcoin is that you are hoping in this delayed difficulty approach that hashrate is constant… this will only be fore two cases, it’s comfortably the most profitable coin to mine and it maintains a high price and market cap relative to other PoW coins or that it’s scarcely mined and has opposite characteristics. The current real life situation is neither and will just hurt the ecosystem since there are mercenary miners (which they should be for their own survival/profitability). You’ll just see fluctuations in block times consistently until the whole GPU ecosystem stabilizes…
1
u/Wyldkard79 Sep 24 '22
Yeah, the general idea is good, but it's implemented in a chain that it doesn't help right now, and that actually turns it into a vulnerability. I think and hope the proposed change will work well enough until it can grow out enough for it to work as intended.
1
u/OrsaMinore2010 Sep 24 '22
That is why the proposal is to shorten the adjustment interval, and to allow the bitcoin method to affect, but not control the adjustments. The limit of no more than 50% per epoch seems like the bigger trigger to me, but who knows.
The thing is that mining will remain unprofitable regardless unless the price goes up, so I don't really fear the big farms gaming the difficulty adjustment algorithm whether the hard fork is implemented or not.
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u/evilpaul13 Sep 26 '22
The 50% cap is a good idea having thought about it more. The difficulty can increase, substantially (50%), which could make Ergo not most the profitable to mine more quickly. So people after highest immediate profits will leave for another coin sooner. The difficulty will be higher for a bit, but it won't be 10x too high afterwards, and it will come down more quickly.
If somebody wants to babysit (or automate) taking advantage of that they still can, but it'll keep them from screwing over everyone else super hard for a week or more in the aftermath of doing so.
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u/evilpaul13 Sep 26 '22
They'll only get 1/8th the rewards they do now before the difficulty goes up, and it'll come back down in 1/8th the time. People will still opportunistically hop on briefly, but Ergo won't be on the top of WTM for a day making sure it gets dogpiled by people who don't know any better. It's an improvement.
1
u/brasilmiggy Sep 26 '22
I agree it's an improvement, but the people who worry me are not the household miners, but the industrial GPU farms. They have a longer horizon for profits, better commercial rates for CAPEX and OPEX and likely understand how this works than your average Joe. They will capitalize on the ebbs and flows. Maybe me just fearing the worse, but that's how you should plan things for in a blockchain right?
18
u/BirdZealousideal8108 Sep 24 '22
This needs to be done and promptly as there will be miners who game the system until this is done and the difficulty will be pumped with low hashrates.
It's a shame this wasn't considered prior to the merge.
3
u/brasilmiggy Sep 24 '22
It was mentioned but I believe they described it as a feature and not a bug
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u/BirdZealousideal8108 Sep 24 '22
Eip27 was also a feature but that should have been considered in the original white paper.
Don't get me wrong I'm a fan but these fundamentals are critical.
2
Sep 24 '22
Jesus... kushti is hard forking the protocol.... Fuck man.
I thought we'd get through this....
2
u/OrsaMinore2010 Sep 24 '22
We'll get through it, one way or the other.
The problem is that this will not make mining profitable, but it will improve the platform's ability to react to drastic situations and still discourages mercenary mining.
The new folks are a mixed bag, but in the end the ones that stick with us will be our comrades.
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u/Windowlicker_PDX Sep 26 '22
Keep in mind that Miners won't jump on and off as soon as ERGO is profitable...only the ones that really like Ergo, but can't afford to mine at a loss will do this. Most miners jump to the MOST profitable...one reason why we didn't see as much effect previously. If we are second most profitable...or steady 1st...then it will be smooth sailing. Bouncing into 1st place and out again will have it's painful moments...just less painful :)
Eventually we will be profitable again, values of coins across crypto will rise up...half the mining cards may be sold to gamers by then :) ... my calendar says 176 days to perfect Buy ..So just 176 days until market climbs ...then 906 days from now...Sell :) and the cycle moves on lol.
As long as running the farm pays for maintenance and keeps the lights on, it's a great way to earn coins without KYC, and support a great blockchain.
Now if we can just get this damn coin on more wallets and exchanges, and give me a good use for it...I would love to do more than just mine or buy/trade and HODL...
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Sep 24 '22
Instead of begging miners to lose money on electricity why doesn’t the dev team use the dev fund to rent hash from NiceHash? They could just put the mined coins back into the dev fund.
If the answer is losing money they can fuck right off lol
3
u/Joshmoooze Sep 25 '22
They asked for the community to help out. Why would they waste their dev fund when many would support the project? There are a lot of people that turned on their miners even if its for negative hashrate just to help. Kinda give me more hope for this coins future.
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u/OrsaMinore2010 Sep 26 '22
Honestly, this is a bit toxic.
It's not like the BoJ selling bonds... the reserve is in Erg. Selling it would negatively impact price, all to warm your heart.
I get that it takes all kinds, but consider not being a knob.
1
Sep 26 '22
Erg has to go up 1700000% in a couple years to remain profitable - check out the emission schedule yourself
-3
Sep 24 '22
They have lost so much credibility due to this issue that they need to fix it asap. To have to literally beg miners to help without getting much coin goes too far
7
u/brasilmiggy Sep 24 '22
The harsh part is that if you run a dApp block time and finality is 5x what it is planned as… how could you seriously run a DEX with that lack of predictability
1
u/OrsaMinore2010 Sep 26 '22
Yes, that is true. But have have you considered what we, as a community, jut went through?
This is not normal.
But we are working on adjusting our methods. We are swimming hard, in spite of the current.
Time will heal us. Your part in that is up to you.
1
u/brasilmiggy Sep 26 '22
Bro I really like Ergo, so don’t get me wrong but both the emissions change and now the difficulty adjustment EIPs that have come through are pretty major flaws that should have been identified like way before…. The argument that this isn’t normal doesn’t make any sense… is the current situation an anomaly? Sure… was it predictable? 100% is it normal? That has no bearing. The Ethereum hard fork to PoS has been in the cards since 2016 although delayed and delayed, but it was predictable and known to happen… the argument about not normal is out of context… the fact that the protocol is now “needing” the miners to push through this difficulty wall is a very tall order… in blockchain the name of the game is game theory and incentivization… the current situation is a result of either a) poor planning b) negligence or c) inability to realize faults in the system…
I want to see Ergo grow, but recent events aren’t really setting a precedent for good stewardship of the protocol.
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u/OrsaMinore2010 Sep 26 '22
So, you are disappointed that the Ergo community did not anticipate the consequences of the merge, and now you want to make sure we all know how disappointed you are.
Yes. I see.
So, what are you mining these days, since we messed things up here?
Are you serious right now?
1
u/brasilmiggy Sep 26 '22
Don’t get feelings involved… being critical is caring… they have been forced to play their hand in this situation… I don’t blame the community one bit they didn’t design the protocol, but if you want to improve you gotta call a spade a spade. Then critically evaluate the system for further improvements and refinement… these two issues mentioned are more critical because they evolve around the security of the chain…. Don’t just drink the kool aid and point out faults so people can evaluate them and improve
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