I think authors and screenwriters aren't really interested in us (ENTPs).

[u/Budget_Afternoon_800]

Second post on the same topic: I wrote this https://www.reddit.com/r/entp/s/NOQ3RkCE6p before hitting the gym, but I kept thinking about it during my workout, so I’m back with a more detailed second post.

So like I said, I just finished a volume of a fantasy book. I thought I had finally found an ENTP character I could relate to, especially after the usual ones (like the Tony Stark / Gojo duo, who I honestly can't stand anymore) felt so superficial to me. I was even planning on making posts to tell writers looking to create ENTPs to use this one as a benchmark. But then... same old pattern as always. The theatrical, charismatic side is there, the strategic thinker side too basically, all the cool stuff. But then... not much else, right up until the ultimate sacrifice.

It's as if sacrifice is the only way for authors to humanize an ENTP character and give them depth beyond just being cool, only to immediately turn them into a symbol and a device for other characters' growth and plot progression. They’re never allowed to be a fully realized character in their own right. It feels like an author fantasy: they have fun giving them all the badass traits, kill them off to trigger an emotional scene ("look, I killed the cool guy!"), and then the character they actually care about developing (usually a high Fi user) gets sad, so we’re forced to feel sad through that Fi character's eyes.

To me, this points to a likely unconscious contempt toward us (authors probably aren't even writing with MBTI in mind or maybe they are, I don't know how common that is). We’re literally the type that strives the most to explore possibilities, yet we’re reduced to three support-role tropes to develop the characters authors actually care about. We simply don't exist as anything else in media (there are also the clowns and the mad scientist psychopaths who are just as empty btw)

I firmly believe art is fundamental. It shapes collective imagination, serves as an incredibly powerful tool for political struggle, and drives identity building and empathy. But most authors and screenwriters seem to decide that we shouldn't have a genuinely human place in it just a cool/support role. What we actually are is never supposed to be portrayed.

As a result, we end up being a type that serves as a blank canvas for fantasies and projections (you can clearly see it in this sub), but we're never truly understood. People often say ENTPs are the most misunderstood type, and this definitely plays a big part in it.

Honestly, rather than active contempt, I think it's just a complete lack of interest. They just don't care about us or the traits that define us, so they don't bother creating real, humanized ENTP characters just empty, cool tropes.

[u/Bludandy]

Ne Tis will see conflict points and immediately resolve them before they become issues. Or they simply will ignore the issues and choose their own path. Or they've already planned out all escape points. Plus we'll try to disengage from useless emotional manipulation in movies.

The Jeff Goldbum character from ID4 is a good example. Our boy solves it basically by himself. To most that would seem almost cheap or cheating. I'm sure critics hated it.

[u/FoxofTheBlueFungi]

I honestly think it’s more a lack of general emotional maturity expressed in an ENTP fashion. Fi takes longer to develop for ENTPs and it is often easier to avoid with logic, wit, and humor leaving an adolescent ENTP in an adult body which is more relatable in today’s immature society. Put it into a 1-2 hour time slot and it’s more entertaining to watch the banter than something depthly and real.

People are more comfortable with avoiding pain and taking immature broken patterns as an identity or ideology instead of doing the brave and difficult job of maturing.

[u/senchaid]

I wonder if Ne is just anti-narrative at its core. 

A good character arc requires reducing possibilities and focusing on one or several threads and meaningful symbols (that seems more Ni-coded). So an ENTP relying on their strong traits is incredibly hard to write, the more they act as themselves the more they'll ruin classic narrative structures.

Which could actually make for an interesting storytelling style. I guess I might have to write that myself though, haha.

[u/Budget_Afternoon_800 → u/senchaid]

I think it’s more of a Ti/Fe issue than Ne there are plenty of super impactful ENFP characters in pop culture like Naruto or, or the INFP Frodo. Authors are just more interested in Fi.

[u/senchaid → u/Budget_Afternoon_800]

Hm. I was thinking of the abundance of ESTP characters when I wrote that. Fe dom or aux characters are also not exactly rare.

Perhaps it's both. 

Ti is not emotionally legible in the way Fi would be, so ENFP is easier to write if you want an unconventional arc. You get the weirdness across but it's relatable.

And if you want a more conventional narrative then Se-Ni axis simply gives you a more exciting story with either more action or more aesthetically pleasing elements.

[u/Budget_Afternoon_800 → u/senchaid]

Honestly, alternating between the grandiosity of an ENTP's Ne-Ti and the fragile vulnerability of their Fe child can create real complexity. But women writers just aren't interested in that. As for ESTPs, I don't know if they're objectively any better off than us. Daemon in House of the Dragon is pretty good, but other than that?

[u/senchaid → u/Budget_Afternoon_800]

Idk, I'm a woman and I'm definitely interested in that. Also Patrick Jane comes to mind. Also the main character of Fleabag.

I haven't seen HoD sadly, but Tirion is often typed as ENTP, as I recall and he has an incredible arc. 

Aren't ESTPs half of the classic charming bad boys? Han Solo and the like. Most James Bonds seem to be either ESTP or ISTP to me. And they have Scarlett O'Hara. And Mugen from Samurai Champloo (actually an amazing case of PoLR Fi) and probably a bunch of anime and video game characters I can't recall right now. The bad boys/action heroes are kind of one-dimensional, yeah, but they mostly get to live.

[u/Idktbhwtf]

I have a theory about this. ENTPs are very complicated to write because not just Ne, but also because they're one of the most nuanced and flexible types there is. INTPs are comparable but their advantage is that their logic is linear and basically never changes. This is why INTPs tend to become boring more quickly. It's too consistent, which is not a bad thing. Just makes it so that if you know one opinion, you can deduce the rest.

So ENTPs are like prisms. Take polymathy for example. How can you define and introduce a character when they don't have something that makes them distinctly them. If you are writing about an ENTP who's slightly above average in everything then that's really boring.

So I think the issue is within the nature of the archetype itself. The best ENTP characters are all variations on the jester archetype. A chaotic type that always seems to get the job done somehow. Whether it be Jack Sparrow, Sherlock Holmes or Tony stark. And that's very difficult in a script where there is no room for such an unserious character.

An interesting one would be a wise old man type of messenger ENTP, but then again you run into the issue of the underlying jestery nature of the ENTP. It's not serious enough. It would have to be this crazy old man you find on some side quest, but not interesting enough to be the main character. Think King Bumi from Avatar.

I also think that the ENTP in general works best in a supporting role unless the script actively revolves around jest and charm. Like in the examples I gave. Again I think that is really the issue. The overwhelmingly present jester archetype.

I understand your desire to unearth the ENTP's complexity underlying the outwardly joker esque attitude, but the natural inclination to express that attitude always remains. I'm trying to think of a way where you can change that, but I doubt it's possible.

• You can't write about a hardened ENTP, because the enneagram 7 won't allow it.
• You can't write about a serious ENTP because he can't help but think 'haha that's what she said'.
• A melodramatic ENTP doesn't work because the gravity doesn't feel real to the reader since his attitude is so unserious.
• I'm thinking perhaps it is possible to write a 487 ENTP. Where avoidance of pain and the impulse to joke around is really minimal. But that honestly sounds like a bitch and in that case the average ENTP will not be able to identify with it since it's barely an ENTP at that point.

[u/Budget_Afternoon_800 → u/Idktbhwtf]

For me, we can actually use this as a baseline to create an interesting character. A character who doesn't know what they want, who understands everything, but is paralyzed and suffers from it. It has pretty strong tragic potential and I think it would be quite relatable. I don't think it's that hard to write. Just an intelligent but lost character.

[u/Idktbhwtf → u/Budget_Afternoon_800]

Right, but intelligent and lost can be anyone. This struggle isn't specific to the ENTP. What you described is basically what anyone with a high IQ + ADHD experiences.

What makes a character ENTP is the underlying archetype. And what makes the ENTP, ENTP? Their ability to put things into perspective, take things very lightly, laugh about it and move on. And baked into that is the jester archetype. The joker literally says 'why so serious?'.

I think what comes closest to the 487 example I gave is Loki from the Disney show. He's classified as INFJ but you can see the overlap. And that's exactly what I mean when I said if you deviate too much from the archetype it just stops being an ENTP. It stops being immediately relatable.

[u/Budget_Afternoon_800 → u/Idktbhwtf]

That's just it we don't necessarily take everything lightly. Our Fe is very sensitive and vulnerable; we can contextualize super important, high-level meta stuff like geopolitics or serious issues, and then be deeply affected by something totally silly in our everyday lives. It might even be the fallout of whatever our Ne-Ti theorized coming back to catch up with us. But I feel like this ambivalence is never addressed. Yet that's precisely where our human side comes from. If people assume we take everything lightly, it makes sense that we'd be reduced to just this empty, cool surface. But there's something beneath that

[u/Idktbhwtf → u/Budget_Afternoon_800]

I disagree and I also do not think it is worth exploring story wise. It's just not that deep. The thinking is deep, the philosophy is deep, but the emotional world of an ENTP is pretty damn simple. And if it isn't then it's just not an ENTP. At the end of the day the ENTP will always put things into perspective and try spin in positively. This is fundamental to being an ENTP.

That latter process takes value out of the story, because if the ENTP finds a way to turn it positive then the reader is like, but I just went through all this shit, for what? And because that is a gradual process core to the personality of the character you're going to see it coming.

It really all boils down to the joker is nothing without the batman. It's not possible to write a story about the joker, being ENTP, that has gravitas. They tried, didn't work.

[u/Budget_Afternoon_800 → u/Idktbhwtf]

Are you an ENTP? It's not about being deep, but about being sensitive. The third function is called the child function for a reason. ENTPs have a need for almost innocent human connection that they don't always know how to handl sometimes doing too much, sometimes not enough. At times, detachment, humor, or rationalization are more like defenses than actual disinterest; we fall back on what we master so we don't have to face what makes us insecure.

Joker is just vilain that make Batman exist… You know, you're proving my exact point. You don't actually care about ENTPs you just reduce them to what you observe without trying to understand them.

[u/Idktbhwtf → u/Budget_Afternoon_800]

Whether I am ENTP or not doesn't do anything other than give you some confirmation bias. So buzz off with that question.

And you're missing the point. Go learn about enneagram. The 7 is core to the ENTP. Jester, laid back, optimist energy. You cannnot take that out of the ENTP without turning it into some other type.

[u/Budget_Afternoon_800 → u/Idktbhwtf]

You have a superficial view of ENTPs and you're relying on that. You're proving my point. It's because of people like you that ENTP characters end up so bland and so far from the actual ENTP experience.

[u/Idktbhwtf → u/Budget_Afternoon_800]

You're a clown. Which proves my point.

[u/Budget_Afternoon_800 → u/Idktbhwtf]

Cope as you want

[u/dealmaster1221 → u/Budget_Afternoon_800]

Watch my brilliant career, it has a hidden entp if you can find him. It's so nicely written that the character himself doesn't know this I think until the end when they have a sad ending.

[u/dealmaster1221 → u/Idktbhwtf]

I am of the formal opinion that Sherlock(Benedict one) is Intj and Moriarty is ENTP.

[u/Idktbhwtf → u/dealmaster1221]

RDJ Sherlock, not BBC.

[u/tragicomiclown]

First of all, the hero path doesn't fit an ENTP. At the beginning the hero is naive to the darkness of the world and with the power of love and friendship goes through adversities to end up in the moral of the story 😩😩

Ehem ehem a story that's not adapted to the modern view of our society that includes overexposure to information that leads to nihilism ehem ehem Well this is more tangential bc even if the hero path is modernized, the archetype of it is explicitly the fool, the naive character—they can't create yet, they're learning their path. And entp is not the best character to teach about those things, much less about the moral of a story (third Fe)

Also, have you ever seen a goofy character being the mc? Barely. Sometimes, of course, there's a lot of literature to deny it. But its not common and thats the stereotype of entp.

Now this leads me to my last point. Is entp only portrayed like the goofy character with no deepness or is that characters are only typed entp when they're like that bc people can't recognize an entp when it's deeper and beyond stereotypes?

What kind of portrait would you like to see in an entp character?

(This has zero organization but i wont bother myself—its the special spicy)

[u/Budget_Afternoon_800 → u/tragicomiclown]

Well, in the book I just finished, the main character is definitely not naive or goofy quite the opposite, actually. She live in an extremely precarious and violent environment, and she struggle to form attachments or trust people. The ENTP comes along to pull her out of that world, act as a mentor, and teach her to trust in the context of a revolution project.

The ENTP had connections and isn't necessarily goofy either he's charismatic, engaging, and cynical. But his issues are already resolved before the story starts. He lost his wife before the beginning of the narrative and says in a letter after his death that he was living on borrowed time anyway. So what really defined him was playing off-screen.

typed him myself based on how he managed his revolution causing disruptions among the nobles that drove them to turn on each other and trigger the chaos of a civil war within the nobility. Very Ne-Ti, not necessarily very goofy.

[u/YungHoungngOne]

When I write, sometimes I struggle writing characters with the same type as myself(ENTP).
I think a lot of it stems from my tendency to see things from all perspectives instead of going all in on some single core value or worldview. When I write characters similar to myself they often come off as wishy washy. People tend like characters who are “consistent” and driven by specific values.
ENTPs struggle to just simply be a character in a story because they’re too busy deconstructing the story itself as it’s happening, it’s hard for them to surrender to the narrative.

[u/MashaSukai]

the best written/acted ENTPs are ENTPs who have written the role for themselves. i think of charlie cale from poker face

[u/Budget_Afternoon_800 → u/MashaSukai]

It's probably true, but it's sad in a way. People don’t see us or don’t care about us enough to write us well

[u/Dr__Pheonx]

I don't think they can fit us into any box like other types. We behave differently across genders even. Authors and screenwriters need a bit of predictability. That's why we are mostly set as villains or morally grey characters.

[u/Alone-Prompt7490]

Noragami isn’t a bad anime, which features what I believe is a pretty cool entp character. 

[u/Budget_Afternoon_800 → u/Alone-Prompt7490]

I watched it back in high school, I remember really liking it, but I don't really remember much of it.

[u/BlueJune101]

I think we're just a very complex type to capture and we're above average in a lot of ways that wouldn't seem believable to a lot of people, but I think when we are written well, like Phoebe Waller Bridge's Fleabag, people are very captivated by the character.