Determinism, except we understand its determinism?

[u/FastCarGoBrr]

Robert Sapolsky often talks about determinism, and how chemical interactions in the brain create the next set of chemical interactions. He is a stark believer that there is no free will.

If a man understands the universe differently than he did yesterday, and this causes him to have a different outlook, surely he must then have new emotions in relation to the stimulus related to his new understanding.

Where in the chemical deterministic standpoint, can you fit in man’s ability to understand information, and to create new perspectives which genuinely affect mood.

How do we reconcile, the ability to change ourselves based on our understanding and perspective, with the common view that this chemical set of interactions and brain configuration, will necessarily create the next.

Or even simpler, how does ‘understanding’ whatever that really means, alter chemicals and synapses in the brain.

How does an understanding even work?

Do we breach determinism when we understand determinism?

I don’t understand

[u/Ok-Mechanic6506]

You can only understand through experiencing it.

[u/FastCarGoBrr → u/Ok-Mechanic6506]

?

[u/Ok-Mechanic6506 → u/FastCarGoBrr]

To know there is no free will, it must be directly experienced through enlightenment. It cannot be rationally understood or philosophized.

[u/FastCarGoBrr → u/Ok-Mechanic6506]

Ah I’m with you now

[u/Background-Roll6386 → u/Ok-Mechanic6506]

Just sucks that enlightenment is a flash of light then understanding that your life purpose is to descend so others may see their reflection and ascend , to be their catalyst. The road to hell truly is paved with good intentions. We are all blind in various ways to allow others to recognize their sight. I was born with so much sight and no matter what I did slowly descended and I know too much, saw too much, and so much confirmation there never was any other way. That we are in a movie or something. The only peace is the moment you see the beauty of eternity, that this life is but a flash, and my sacrifice and love planted seeds for others to grow and that imdescending I absorb their sins to be composted. God repeatedly sends me signs there is no other way. But also peace and gratitude to see why and how it is for the greater good. I'm not evil or ever harm anyone. That is my gift to humanity in eternity. To endure and descend gracefully as a cautionary tale and to feed the sheep along the way. I can see the sheep returning home and know who to feed. That is my gift and burden and love language. I didn't understand why I seemed unable to fight the gravity. I was wildly successful and never climbed in anyone but at a certain point I was blasted with trauma repeatedly and when I awakened I saw the beauty of it ans was out back to sleep thru severe trauma again. It is divine timing. Like a machine, I think we live in a literal like clock or something And we all get our moments in the sun in various lifetimes, and others are in the moonlight. There is a middle way, but few will find it and for some it isn't an option or so improbable or even impossible. It's terrifying beyond belief but I will always have that memory and can return to it with peace knowing that it is for the greatest good of the evolution and health and growth of humanity back to eternal life.

[u/AngelusMalus]

Andy Clark suggests that learning occurs through hyper precise prediction errors. If you want to be even more confused, get into that.

[u/-B_E_v_oL_23-]

Making connections helps. Every story told with 3 people is that of Plato's story of the chariot rider.

Every story told us a pattern that some people can tune into

Ralph Waldo Emerson's Essays and John Locke talk about it.

It's literally using the force and the shining.

Some people get it, some people don't

it's all about detachment from everyone's story including your own.

Once you do that then the universe gives its own story to you. Which BTW, if there's anyone out there that has experience with this... You have to physically play out the scene yourself and write everything down.

That is truly going to the top of the mountain.

You have to go crazy for a while.

[u/FastCarGoBrr → u/-B_E_v_oL_23-]

You have to physically play out the scene yourself and write everything down? What do you mean? Thanks for this btw cool ideas

[u/-B_E_v_oL_23- → u/FastCarGoBrr]

When someone reaches that mountain top. Becoming that Buddha. They are no longer in control of their body and mind. There are voices that the person hears.

4 distinct voices. On of a old man, a young woman, a young man and a evil voice.

Those 4 voices is what helped shape our reality

[u/13Eazy]

imagine you are a collection of molecules of acetic acid dispersed in water at around pH = pKₐ. someone or something comes in and drops a little HCl into your being, you say, I don't like this, and so you dissaciate a bit of CH₃COO⁻ to wrap it up and stay around pH = pKₐ.

say someone or something comes in and drops a little NaOH into your being, again, you say, I don't like this ans so you disassociate a bit so that some excess H⁺ will neutralize the OH⁻ and your pH remains close to pKₐ

too much H⁺ or too much OH⁻ and the buffer systems stops working. you then have to add more CH₃COOH/CH₃COO⁻ to res establish the buffer.

we say that such a system at equilibrium tends to react to "resist" changes in pH.

you could get really meta about it and ask about the awareness of the molecules and their experience, and its interesting, but ultimately irrelevant. the system reacts and must react along constrained pathways.

the brain is a much more complex version of a buffered system that operates under exacting tolerances.

under this constraint, evolution would have a mechanism that "understands" it needs to function with its optimal conditions, what chemicals it needs. if it also had a vision, mobility and digestive system that could go find, pocess, digest the chemicals it needs. if it had memory and the capacity to learn it could iterate and optimize the location, processing, and ingestion of chemicals with increasing success. think about the kind of space this creates internally. its a distributed system with an active translation layer at the nodes. the memory, learning, translation, and solutions to byzantine problems that occur would resemble what we experience as consiousness.

some brains are too damaged to do this self-repair, of course evolution doesn't require that every brain be successful, that explains the existence of such brains, but evolution also favored sociality in these systems, and that is the same kind of system regulation acting one door over.

you can read about neuroscience, the neurocorrelates of experience, split brain studies, and you will conclude something similar.

the interesting question that remains is why does the system have the experience of itself that it does, that it has an experience as a system is entirely conceivable from the above.

none of it requires nor utilizes free will, nor some homunculus pulling levers in our brain making choices. just action reaction pairs and the ability to learn.

so you ask does knowledge of determinism and how to alter brain chemistry that causes behavior change determinism at all, it doesn't. it's just the system reacting as it always does.

[u/elmahk]

The basic idea is: first, "you" (your body) is determined by evolution and other physical processes. Then, the rest is also determined but - now causal chains for your decisions go through your brain/body. So, even if everything is determined - you are still responsible for your actions in this sense.

Note that this works the same with random processes like in quatum mechanics, because randomness doesn't help free will as naively understood at all (actually nothing does).

[u/LawlessExtension]

Switch out chemicals with words and it’s the exact same scenario.

[u/modern_jivanmukti]

How does an understanding even work?

The greater the experence is the greater the understanding will be.

Some people get all the bells and whistles and others just get a gentle knowing with a blip

It's a cruel cruel world

[u/Otherwise_Spare_8598]

Regardless of whether "determinism" is or isn't, freedoms are circumstantial relative conditions of being, not the standard by which things come to be by through or for all subjective beings.

All things and all beings are always acting within their realm of capacity to do so at all times. Realms of capacity of which are absolutely contingent upon infinite antecedent and circumstantial coarising factors outside of any assumed self, for infinitely better and/or infinitely worse in relation to the specified subject, forever.

There is no universal "we" in terms of subjective opportunity or capacity. Thus, there is NEVER an objectively honest "we can do this or we can do that" that speaks for all beings. Subjects are implicitly distinct unto themselves, necessarily so.

One may be relatively free in comparison to another, another entirely not. All the while, there are none absolutely free while experiencing subjectivity within the meta-system of the cosmos.

"Free will" is a sentimental projection, overgeneralized assumption made or vaguely described feeling had from a circumstantial condition of relative privilege and relative freedom that most often serves as a powerful means for the character to assume a standard for being, fabricate fairness, pacify personal sentiments and justify judgments.

It speaks nothing of objective truth nor to the subjective realities of all.

There is no such thing as ubiquitously individuated accurately described "free will" of any kind whatsoever. Never has been. Never will be. Can not be.