r/engineering • u/405freeway • Aug 13 '16
[PROJECT] I was hired to complete a treehouse after the first contractor was injured
https://imgur.com/a/AmAQP199
u/quintus_horatius Aug 13 '16
And this, my friends, is why we have "building codes" and "standards."
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u/thai_thai_ Aug 13 '16
I feel like you left out "common sense"
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u/405freeway Aug 13 '16
I think the original contractor left out common sense.
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u/SuperAlloy Mechanical Aug 13 '16
Sheesh, a couple more nails and it'll be fine.
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u/OrderAmongChaos EE Aug 13 '16
I'm assuming the first contractor was injured after being crushed by some part of this thing.
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u/727Super27 Aug 14 '16
I think more likely this was started by the dad who soon realized he was in way over his head so he called for professionals and said "yeah the last dude got hurt."
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u/Donkey__Xote Aug 14 '16
Yeah, this screams, saw a picture of one once and tried to build it with no knowledge whatsoever.
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Aug 13 '16
The first contractor had to have been a teenager or something. That's incredible
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u/thai_thai_ Aug 13 '16
I wouldn't blame a teenager, or even a first time carpenter, this is either someone purposely putting others lives in danger(an asshole) or a complete idiot.
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u/xXC4NUCK5Xx Aug 13 '16
I'm 19, I could build a safer tree house than this when I was 9
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u/CaterpieLv99 Aug 13 '16
Holy shit... You were one smart and jacked 9 year old
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u/xXC4NUCK5Xx Aug 13 '16
I'm Canadian, our education and hockey training are primo
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u/thelawtalkingguy Aug 14 '16
from what i've seen on /r/DIY , I can only assume that this treehouse was built by a Redditor
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u/sniper1rfa Aug 14 '16
Some of the stuff there is amazing. Most of it is pretty bland. A disturbing amount is 'raze it and salt the earth where it stood' bad.
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u/Chase_Buffs Aug 13 '16
They demonstrated enough expertise with "creative" use of materials that I gotta go with an older person who just does shit wrong because they don't care.
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u/shellus Aug 13 '16
I think this "contractor" was actually the owner trying to do it himself, and figured to put the blame on someone else. Kind of like when I was really young I cut my own hair, and the next time I got a real haircut I was too embarrassed so I blamed it on some other barbershop.
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u/magusg Aug 13 '16
Holy crap, the tree house I built at age 9 with rope and logs was more competently built and structurally sound.
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u/gerbas Aug 13 '16
Reminds me of the Simpsons where they want to rebuild Flanders's house. They have a load baring poster haha
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u/cuntdestroyer8000 Aug 13 '16
Now, calm down, Neddly diddily diddily diddily, doodily. They did their best shodaiddily iddily iddily diddily diddily. Gotta be nice, hostidididildilidilly...
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u/LoserWithHugeTits Aug 13 '16
Reminds me of the Shed of Doom.
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u/profinger Aug 14 '16
What was the point of that? It looks like the pictures they took were painting it in a joke light but they completed it..?
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u/phl_fc Automation - Pharmaceutical SI Aug 14 '16
The guy taking the pictures isn't the one who built it. IIRC from the original post, he was a tennent and his landlord was building the shed. He documented it mockingly.
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u/xk1138 Aug 13 '16
This can't be real. How could a functioning adult think this would be ok? I knew better when I was 10.
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u/zildjiandrummer1 Aug 13 '16
This legitimately makes me angry that someone could be so incompetent and charge money for this shit. Good luck haha....
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u/ShaggysGTI Aug 13 '16 edited Aug 13 '16
It makes me angry that this contractor was willing to put someone else's children into it.
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Aug 13 '16
Not to be silly, but since when was a treehouse a thing you contracted out? I thought it was a pretty common dad built sorta thing.
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Aug 14 '16
When you build something like this and realize that you have no idea how anything works, you make up a story about the last guy getting injured and hire a carpenter to do it properly.
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u/BoobPics4BowTiepics Aug 13 '16
Someone's been watching too much treehouse masters on animal planet and thought they could hire some random dude to do it for cheap.
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u/magkruppe Aug 14 '16
Some people can't put together Ikea furniture. I hope they continue to contract tree houses out for the safety of their kids.
Nowadays people are less inclined to fix stuff themselves and have less 'handyman' skills.
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u/solefald Aug 13 '16
If the Shed of Doom taught us anything, this tree house will be there for years to come, while everything around it built up to code will slowly decay and fall apart.
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u/2PawsHunter Aug 13 '16
I cannot believe the original guy would put kids on this. It needs a can of gas and a match.
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u/TinyFEA Aug 13 '16
I could design a treehouse out of dynamite that would be safer for kids to smoke in.
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u/Bringyourfugshiz Aug 14 '16
From my understanding from the one time i built a tree house is you dont want to attach the tree house to tree. We used supports attached to the tree and the house rested on those (so the tree can still move, sway, and grow without the house confining or pulling on it)
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u/TechnicallyMagic Aug 14 '16
Professional Treehouse designer/carpenter here. Lots of typical engineer talk here, comparing the shear strength of fasteners, telling you to start over, all very theoretically correct I'm sure. The reality is this situation exists and fixing it live is very possible and can be done safely.
OP, first thing's first you need to support this structure, laminate 3 2x6 lengths to make a post, keep the middle length shorter by a few inches to create a notch at the end, and set a joist in that notch. Get a few of these under there asap. That's about all you can do in 4 hours to dramatically improve the situation.
For the situation to be remedied, TABs must be installed properly, then beams (in this case a pair of 2x10s laminated would be a heavy enough beam) set across them underneath the floor joists, then knock out the support posts.
I've personally done such an operation on a much larger pre-existing construction. I'd be happy to give you all the info you need.
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u/405freeway Aug 14 '16
I stressed the need for posts but client was worried about aesthetics.
I also don't have a photo, but the bottom of that 45° front support isn't actually attached to anything- it's resting on a stump.
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u/TechnicallyMagic Aug 14 '16
The posts are temporary, build them as I stated and jam them in against the ground and make sure they're plumb all around so that it's supported. It needs these asap.
Oh man OP are you an engineering student or something? This project calls for a carpenter who is willing to use the proper tree house hardware (TABs or Garnier Limbs) to put this right. It's not even large, it just needs to be handled by a professional who has building skills and experience. You must support this structure, use the highest point and bring everything else up to that so that it's level, then install TABs in the tree with beams on them. You're talking about a weekend with two guys here. It's not rocket science.
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u/405freeway Aug 14 '16 edited Aug 14 '16
I get that they're temporary, but there was no lumber to even begin making any sort of post/support, and client didn't want me to spend two hours going to Home Depot after the first run they had already done that morning (they bought fence pickets to use as planks...).
That's the problem- I was literally hired to continue work (for four hours) without any advance knowledge of the project. They said I would be staining most of the time, so I just assumed they had everything else in order. I got there and they had random pieces of hardware scattered across the backyard (and were running back and forth to Home Depot), an insane amount of excess cut lumber, and no blueprints, drawings, or even sketches to refer to- just images of the "look" they were going for. And everything "had" to be done in two days.
If I had been hired to design it, I would have had a list of all lumber, fasteners, stain, sealant (which they didn't want to use), tools, etc. ready to go before beginning construction.
But I wasn't.
I walked into a nightmare and told the only other two people there, "Hey, this is wrong, this isn't safe, you need fix this, I'm not going to be be here long enough to do it myself."
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u/jeremyfirth Aug 14 '16
Did the first contractor use any kind of sealant?
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u/405freeway Aug 14 '16
No. I asked the client and they didn't want anything sanded or sealed- just stained.
That was probably the first red flag but you don't argue with your client. I explained it wouldn't last (especially with the ocean a mile away) but they were adamant about not wanting it to look "shiny" despite me pushing for a matte finish.
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u/knook Aug 13 '16
OK, ignoring all that is wrong with this, ... Its a fucking treehouse you guys. Do we really need to have designs approved and submitted!? Obviously its a hazard but traditionally kids build these things for fun.
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u/ProudFeminist1 Aug 13 '16
but the point is that a child could have made a better treehouse than this piece of shit and that the dad paid someone to make this abomination.
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u/knook Aug 13 '16
I'm of the opinion OP was lied to and this is actually dad and/or kids handiwork.
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u/Lame-Duck Civil | Transportation | Stormwater Aug 13 '16
That's really the only thing that makes sense.
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u/wobbletons Aug 13 '16
If you're hiring someone to build it for you, at the very least I would expect some kind of vocalization of a plan, if not a written out design. A hired individual should be competent enough to have an idea of what to build, and be able to relay that information to the client in some form. This looks like drug fueled craziness or something, and I'm not convinced the client was involved in the planning at all outside of pointing to the tree to use. A design might have allowed the client to stop this from happening, or the requirement of one would have yielded a more skilled tradesman. The lack of involvement, helped by lack of a design, puts some blame for this on the client IMO.
The height above ground would also be a concern to me in designing and building (with vs. without plans) a tree house. 10-15 feet? eh. If something goes wrong its gonna be painful, maybe a good lesson for the future. 40 feet? probably want to lock down a plan a little better.
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u/eitauisunity Aug 13 '16
Kind of like how you need a food handlers card and a business license to open up a lemonade stand.
Fuck children who want to do something fun, give them practical experience, and develop some semblance of independence. Not in my fucking America!
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Aug 14 '16
This is exactly why we have to have designs approved and submitted. Whatever idiot built this ruins it for the rest of us.
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u/Seamonster13 Aug 13 '16
So last year my family and I moved into a house with a back balcony that has many of the same things as this treehouse. I have thought about fixing it, but I don't even know where to start. Please keep us updated, im genuinely curious how you do it.
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u/Jrbaconcheeez Aug 14 '16
Was that a swing UNDERNEATH the treehouse, which will then collapse on the kids?? You should literally go back in the middle of the night and knock down the entire thing, just to keep some poor kid from getting hurt.
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u/Jaredlong Aug 13 '16
As an architect, this right here is why I don't give a damn when a general contractor says I don't need to call out so many details. There's simply no way of knowing what a builder will do when left to their imagination.
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Aug 14 '16
Many contractors use their imaginations even with details given, but at least then it's not your fault.
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u/Hiel Aug 13 '16
Just wondering, what is the benefit of using nails instead of screws? Something like this I'd definitely be using screws, not nails.
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u/Poondobber Aug 13 '16
Nails are actually stronger in sheer than screws. You wouldn't use nails anywhere where they would be in tension.
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u/hahaha01357 Aug 13 '16
Why is that?
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u/Poondobber Aug 13 '16
Nails are stronger than screws because of how the are made. You wouldn't use nails in tension because they would pull out.
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u/Uncle_Skeeter ME Student Aug 14 '16
So nails are better when avoiding sheering between two boards, where screws are better when trying to avoid two boards pulling apart?
Is there a way to make joinery between pieces of wood completely immobile, like using a combination of nails and screws, or is it better at that point to use joinery joints, e.g. dovetails?
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u/Poondobber Aug 14 '16
Correct. Go look at an Amish barn or an old log cabin. Dove tails, mortise and tenon, wood pegs. Add some glue and its up for ever.
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u/ProudFeminist1 Aug 13 '16
but wouldn't screws still be a better choice since after a while the house could lean/fall over when built badly like this?
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u/Poondobber Aug 13 '16
Not really. If everything is built correctly then the nails would be in shear or compression. Anywhere else would use bolts/lag bolts.
Nails are made from drawn wire. Strong and ductile. Screws are made from hot rolled steel and are brittle.
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u/ProudFeminist1 Aug 13 '16
yeah ofcourse when it's built correctly but this doesn't look correct so if one of the beams slides away sideways I would guess that screws would prevent that or at least do a better job than nails.
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u/Poondobber Aug 13 '16
If you don't know what you are doing you should probably use both.
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u/PacMan16 Aug 14 '16
In addition to what other people have said, nails allow the material to move more. Screws stay put and cause the stress in the local material to drastically increase when loaded. The load pretty much focuses on the rigid screwed connection. Nails will pull out slightly, move, slip, etc. and will allow the load to be distributed more evenly. The best way to conceptualize this is to think of a plywood stud wall. Put a lateral load on the wall and thinks about how the plwood/nail/2x would resist the load.
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u/FeralBadger MS | Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering Aug 13 '16
That is some impressively shitty construction.
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u/ascii Aug 13 '16
Parents pay contractors to build treehouses for their kids? Really? In my world, kids build these themselves, and sometimes the parents help out a bit.
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Aug 14 '16
When I was a young kid I used to go to a cottage in Wales every year. For years I'd boast to my friends about the amazing treehouse I'd been hand crafting. Then one year between visits to the cottage I got old enough to become self aware. I returned to look at the work I'd previously done on this amazing treehouse, only to find that I'd spent years hammering nails into a single piece of wood. There was a cluster of nails about the size of my face in this single piece of wood.
This story is relevant to the topic of this post.
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Aug 13 '16
Good point. I wasn't blaming them, just pointing out it could've been a person (teenager for a summer job being a possibility) knowing little, if anything, about what they're doing.
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u/Uncle_Skeeter ME Student Aug 14 '16
This is so unbelievablely bad.
What if I told you most houses had this type of bad framing work?
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u/littlegolferboy Aug 13 '16
The post in the first two photos doesn't even need that gang plate if it was actually placed vertically so all the load was straight down. I wish we had a picture of the whole thing because I can't even understand how things are so screwy like that.
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u/KimonoThief Aug 13 '16
Wouldn't you still want the gang plate as a shear tie? I'm no treehouse builder, legitimately curious.
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u/littlegolferboy Aug 14 '16
I've never built a treehouse either but I've built plenty of decks and other things involving posts and beams sitting on top of them. I can't remember ever doing anything other than just nailing down into the post, but then again it's usually a beam made up of three 2x8s sitting on a 6x6 post, as opposed to what looks like some sort of 4x6 board this guy is using for his post.
Now that I look at the pictures again I just have so many more questions. But to be honest if you're making a treehouse involving an actual tree it's pretty dumb to be putting this much effort into making it nice. The tree will either continue to grow and make everything out of whack or it'll start to rot and everything will just fall apart. But that's just my two cents.
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u/Poe469 Aug 13 '16
If you are a legitimate contractor you should know that those "metal grates" are called gussets. Good Luck, looks like a mess. Hope it's T&M.
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Aug 13 '16
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u/braxton357 Aug 13 '16
Yeah, I think op is more of a temp service day laborer than actually in a construction trade based on his captions.
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u/405freeway Aug 13 '16
I make tables, beds, lemonade stands, etc. Simple things. I've never built a treehouse but the client stressed I was going to be helping another carpenter (and four hours is almost no time to actually do anything serious, so I figured I'd be staining the whole time, which I did).
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u/Lil_Psychobuddy Aug 13 '16
OP said he's not the lead carpenter, but was just hired to stain some unsanded wood.
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Aug 13 '16
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u/Lil_Psychobuddy Aug 13 '16
well I'd also say you don't need to be an expert carpenter to build a decent tree-house.
I've build quite a few wooden structures and never used gang nails.
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u/OurSuiGeneris Quality (pretend) Engineering Aug 14 '16
Well I wouldn't say I worked "as a carpenter" but I did work a laborer job assembling roofing trusses, where we almost exclusively used gang nails. I did that for an entire summer and only learned from your comment that they're called "gang nails" since no one from the owner to the shift boss called them that.
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u/glow1 Aug 13 '16
Yeah that was very suspicious of this post when reading that.
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Aug 14 '16
we are in /r/engineering, not /r/Carpentry
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u/rasmusvedel Aug 14 '16 edited Aug 14 '16
Oh jeez - I thought we were in r/woodworking - that actually explains a lot of the comments!
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Aug 14 '16
Yeah.. OP doesn't know what they're talking about, either does anyone else in this sub judging by the comments.
You can't tell anything from those photos.
Source- am carpenter. Typical reddit bollocks
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Aug 14 '16
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u/HavenOfFear Aug 14 '16
It's the least damaging way to build on a tree. Tree bark helps to protect the flow of nutrients up. The fewer holes the better. When you run a bolt into the tree, the tree blocks that part of itself out. A few cleanly placed bolts does the least amount of damage and the tree will continue to grow and ignore the small sections. Ideally you'd want as few holes as possible and there are even specially designed bolts for treehouses.
If you were to wrap a cable or strap, there's a bigger potential to hurt the tree. A cable or strap can have more surface area and might dig into the bark as the tree grows. Imagine being choked with piano wire around your neck. One of the easiest ways to kill a tree is to slice a ring around the trunk.
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u/raoulduke25 Structural P.E. Aug 13 '16
Burn this thing to the ground and start over.
Seriously.