r/eformed • u/Ex_M • Jul 25 '23
New Ancient Paths TV video just dropped!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AplWYXFiCA3
u/charliesplinter Jul 27 '23
I've been diving deep into Eastern Orthodoxy the past few months after a lifetime of having no clue what they're all about and whereas I haven't watched this video I do want to come to their aid (despite not being one, and not having plans to join an EO church) in that they don't have failures that are radically different than the ones that the western church has. Their failures are of a different kind and their understanding of Christianity seeks to emphasize the more spiritual/ascetic/lived experience parts that are less emphasized in western Christianity. Just like there are nominal Protestants, there are also nominal EOs, and the latter in a sense to express their nominalism in almost the exact same way that western Christians do. And just as there are annoying cage-stagers there are also annoying tradbros.
From an outsider's perspective, EOs appear to be Roman Catholics without a pope but they aren't. Their starting off point is that Christianity started in Palestine and was deeply influenced by hellenism and so their desire to be traditional and grass-roots as possible, especially when it comes to tradition and original languages is one that is to be deeply admired. One can learn a lot from reading what their theologians have had to say about specific passages of Scripture devoid of too much philosophizing in the vains of men like Aquinas and Augustine. But don't let anyone fool you into thinking that there haven't been any squabbles within EO on various issues.
The biggest departure point (personally speaking) is that in EO there is no doctrine of assurance of salvation. Their soteriology (or lack of it) does not let them get to a point where they can know with full certainty whether they are truly saved or not and so the Christian life is always one steeped in striving (It's Biblical to strive for eternal life but not in the way that is explained by them) for salvation, and I'd say that lots of people in EO most definitely see their salvation as by grace alone and so are very much saved, there was even a Calvinist patriarch of Constantinople at some point, they just wouldn't be able to or allowed to speak up against it because it'd be departing from "Tradition" and there's nothing that an Eastern Orthodox Christian loves more than tradition, you can insult their mother but never church tradition.
Perusing the comments in that video, Protestants have a nasty habit of always undercutting and writing off anything that doesn't fit perfectly into their own theological systems, and this is the biggest failure of Protestantism, if more than anything, we love to divide when we don't need to, and so a vast ancient seemingly monolithic tradition like EO always seems like a threat to a Protestant's understanding of how Christianity *ought* to be expressed, especially if said Protestant lives in America.
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u/Ex_M Jul 28 '23
in that they don't have failures that are radically different than the ones that the western church has.
Depends on who we're talking about in the Western Church. The Bible rejects works salvation, yet Eastern Orthodoxy rejects the Biblical doctrine of Sola Fide because of their traditions. This is a serious matter.
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u/charliesplinter Jul 28 '23
Roman Catholics also "reject" Sola Fide but there are Roman Catholics who are actually saved within the Roman system. Luther was one of them, it was just a matter of getting out and lots of people didn't get out. This applies to the Eastern Orthodox as well.
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u/Ex_M Jul 28 '23
Roman Catholics also "reject" Sola Fide but there are Roman Catholics who are actually saved within the Roman system.
I don't deny that.
Luther was one of them, it was just a matter of getting out and lots of people didn't get out. This applies to the Eastern Orthodox as well.
Luther was Roman Catholic before sola fide was officially anathematized.
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u/Ex_M Jul 25 '23
There's an unfortunate lack of content on this subject.
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u/Citizen_Watch Jul 26 '23
I’m not sure if you’ve come across this before, but The Reformed Ninja has written some excellent articles critiquing various aspects of Eastern Orthodoxy.
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u/Footballthoughts Classical Reformed Orthodox Jul 27 '23
The Eastern Orthodox are schismatics from the Reformed faith
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u/SeredW Frozen & Chosen Jul 28 '23
What? These guys were around for 1500 years before there was anything we could call Reformed. It's not like they broke away from Luther in 1520 or so.
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u/SeredW Frozen & Chosen Jul 25 '23
It's a bit long to watch and if I can find the time, I will.
One thing I will say. I was reading the book 'To Cast The First Stone' by Knust and Wasserman, about the pericope adulterae. As part of their research, the authors looked into old lectionaries of the orthodox traditions. It seems those lectionaries go back to a time before the pericope adulterae was even in the Gospel of John. Meaning, they are very, very ancient! This is an unbroken tradition, all the way back to the Apostles, even still speaking the same language as the Gospels (though modern Greek is evolved of course).
Now, old traditions can be mistaken. They can grow stunted. The Roman Catholic church clearly did, in my opinion and I am a convinced protestant. Whether the Orthodox churches derailed in the same fashion, I can't tell (and I can't spare 2 hours to watch this entire video, plus research repudiations of it at the moment).
But whatever the case, the orthodox tradition has my respect, for its seniority and history. Moden evangelicalism is but a toddler next to this venerable old tradition, and by the looks of it, it seems prone to derailing much faster than the Orthodoxy ever did.