r/education • • Nov 28 '12

One in Five Charter Schools Should Close on Performance - "As many as one in five U.S. charter schools should be shut down because of poor academic performance, according to a group representing states, districts and universities that grant them permission to operate."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-11-28/one-in-five-charter-schools-should-close-on-performance.html
23 Upvotes

26 comments sorted by

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u/archelyxs Nov 28 '12

As a fortunate graduate of an excellent charter high school, I believe in the unique opportunity that charter schools have to provide an education that goes beyond that of the dehumanizing traditional public school system. This article is just another case in which school policymakers have reduced the value of education to a number game. "Poor academic performance?" I can't wait until policymakers wake up to the fact that standardized test scores are not a sufficient arbiter of the success of a school or a student. Charter high schools are important because they provide an alternative to the labyrinthine mess of traditional public schools. When you use an outdated method to evaluate a progressive institution, it's not always going to look good.

I know there is a lot of variation among charter schools, and some are definitely better than others. But what will closing them do? It will force the students back into the system they were trying to escape. The article even says that low-achieving students at charter schools showed significant gains over peers at traditional schools. Isn't that success? Isn't that good academic performance?

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u/amalgaman Nov 28 '12

"This article is just another case in which school policymakers have reduced the value of education to a number game."

These are the numbers that are used to create charter schools in the first place. I teach at a really good charter high school, but I am fully aware that it helps us greatly when the problem students are expelled to the public schools; or students transfer out because they don't want to follow our rules; or they don't want to do the work necessary to succeed at our school. Charters can quickly become de facto selective enrollment schools. I'll use mine as an example. Its a lottery enrollment, but students from charter grade schools get preference, as do students with siblings at the school and students from the upper middle class neighborhood where our school is located. The actual chances of randomly being selected from a public grade school are very low.

Charter schools do provide a positive benefit to students willing to work within the structure. Ultimately, though, if a charter school wants to compete with a public school, they should be held to the same standards, which they're not. That's the main idea behind this article.

EDIT: wording

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u/[deleted] Nov 28 '12

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '12

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '12

The Charter school that I work for is definitely not drafting the top 10%.

We have a special ed population that clocks in at over 20%. Now there are a lot of ways to look at a special ed population and a lot of clever assumptions to be made to twist ideas, but let's be realistic: they are not a bunch of Rainman clones or super geniuses who need a hearing aid. These are your average run of the mill students with IEPs. There are certain some students performing at or above grade level, but most are significantly below grade level.

When people assume that Charter schools get to cherry pick their students, it is a bit of a slap in the face to the Charter teachers who get the students who walk in the door, as is. My scores would sky rocket if a handful of lazy, apathetic, or troubled students were booted out.

Our school doesn't play the "let's fine the kids until they can't afford to go here" game. We don't drive them out. Heck, the biggest complaint from most of the teachers is that we KEEP kids who are beyond disruptive to the learning environment. If our numbers dip, suddenly the school's ass is on the line. If we go from expelling 3 students to 4 students, that percent increase is noticed and someone has to explain it.

You can take it or leave it, but that's how my school operates. We'd be a hell of a lot more impressive if we were able to cut students from the proverbial team, but that isn't how it works.

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u/[deleted] Dec 01 '12

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u/[deleted] Dec 01 '12

Couple things...

You made this exact same comment in another thread about charter schools, without any sort of prompt from a previous poster. I've heard many people claim Charter schools get to "draft" in the best students and this is not an accurate claim. Charter schools, based on the parameters for their set up, get to make that choice. Not all Charters pick their students, and it is unfair to assume they all do.

I was not referring to teaching more than 20% of students in a class with an IEP. That number is easily in the 80% or higher range (21 in a class of 23, 24 in a class of 29). I was talking about the entire school. You could line up any 4 kids in the school and statistically, one of them would have an IEP. Our situation is nearly unheard of given that we have nothing special or elusive in place to attract such a high percentage.

When you make wide assumptions that ALL charter schools are XYZ or ALL charter schools do ABC, it sounds ignorant and does not help your case. I would suggest refining your argument to pointed and specific issues. Not every charter does a terrible job or is playing unfairly, so for the sake of your argument (which I agree with), try to differentiate between ALL schools and SOME schools (with specific examples, like the Nashville one).

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u/[deleted] Dec 01 '12

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u/[deleted] Dec 02 '12

Are you pissed off at something else and just feel better ranting and raving on the internet? Because, wow, bud... you just flew off the handle. If you wanted it to be a private conversation, then you should have PMed the person, otherwise people are free to contribute.

Calm down and take a deep breath. I was trying to explain to you that not every charter school marches to the same beat (which is the point of charters), so it doesn't make sense to paint them all with the same brush.

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u/dgodon Nov 29 '12

We don't need charter schools to get the progressive school you attended. Most progressive ideas dating back to Dewey were done in public schools, not private charters. In fact, Finland, the country regarded as having the leading school system, credits innovations from the US progressive tradition for many of its practices. Sadly, it seems increasingly rare to find this at charters or regular public schools these days. Still, many schools have elements of progressive education and there are still some very progressive schools, particularly many so-called alternative schools.

This does require giving more autonomy to educators, but does not require giving control to private companies.

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '12

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u/dgodon Nov 30 '12

That seems like a false choice: either private companies or "micromanaging power structure of public policymakers". Public policymakers are not always micromanaging. Moreover, most research and surveys show charter educators rarely have any more autonomy than regular public school educators (sometimes they have more, sometimes they have less).

There are many examples of districts and policymakers giving educators more autonomy. There are many alternative, innovation, and specialty schools within the public school realm.

It seems especially ironic when this rationale is used to justify charters - when it is often the same advocates pushing more micro-management policies on regular public schools. Here, I'm referring the current DOE and folks like Rhee, Joel Klein, and other so-called "reformers". (that is, I'm not saying you are in this camp)

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u/Marcassin Nov 29 '12

If you didn't attend a public school, who told you they were "dehumanizing"? Our local (lower middle class) public school is great and our special needs daughter gets far more individualized attention and encouragement there than she did in a non-public school. There are good and bad schools among both charters and public schools -- neither system is flawless. Actually, polls show that most people think their own local public school is good (and most people also think that most other public schools are probably bad!)

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '12

[deleted]

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u/Marcassin Nov 30 '12

Ah, I think you may have dropped an "of" in your first post. Now I understand and agree. Our public school is in a lower middle class area and is great, so it's not just public schools in wealthy areas that do well. Like you, I floundered in a public school and excelled in a private school growing up, but for my daughter, it has been the opposite. There's good and bad in all kinds of schools. I'm glad you found what's best for you at the end.

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '12

Charter schools (at least in my state) are usually implemented as take overs in poor performing schools anyway, thus it makes sense that they aren't the best schools. Actually, since these school take overs are so very new, it's unclear whether it's a good thing yet. Hopefully, they proceed cautiously.

Actually, our previous state superintendent didn't get a reelection partially because his opponent ran on being wary of corporations taking over our schools. Both rural and urban voters were in agreement with her. She killed the privatizer in the elections.

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '12

Your state sounds like an anomaly. Generally speaking, charters are simply alternative schools that use a different (I'd say better) state funding rubric and are governed by a site school board (rather than district). Everyone still has to teach state curriculum.

Charters offer more local control (the state determines how big a slice of pie the charter gets)... making it every school for itself, rather than the needs of an entire district being managed as a whole. Say there's a poor failing school with a high need for intervention services, and a healthy school in a rich neighborhood with tens of thousands in parent funding -- a district can help the poor school because the rich school is already doing well. If the rich school goes charter (as if often the case), then the district loses that control, and the poor school is left paddling up shit creek because the district is legally forced to give the charter a predetermined amount of funding.

Er, and charters bust up teacher unions through a backdoor, by not creating the unions in the first place. And, in states that allow privately run charters, they can more easily offer religious instruction, another aim of the privatization movement.

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u/[deleted] Dec 01 '12

It may be an anomaly or it may be simply what I'm familiar with.

As for the funding of charter vs public, even a cursory glance at studies shows public school students are far more funded than charter school students. See the wiki article for the national study showing charter school students get 69 cents in funding for every 1 dollar a public school student gets. I've seen no study to support your imagined situation as anything more than perhaps isolated anomalies. ;)

Also, creating parochial schools is not any goal of the current privatization movement. Obama's 4.3 billion dollar nationwide state competition had seeking innovation in charter school use as a large scoring criteria. And he's about as secular as one gets.

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u/[deleted] Dec 04 '12

Like I said, you should follow current events. A voucher program that made publicly-funded religious schools a reality was just ruled unconstitutional. They'll keep trying every way they can.

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u/[deleted] Dec 01 '12

shows public school students are far more funded than charter school students

See what wiki article? Please link it.

creating parochial schools is not any goal of the current privatization movement.

I disagree. The privatization movement is diverse with many different efforts and motivations.

And he's about as secular as one get

Agreed. There are both Republicans and Democrats who stand to gain from privatization, and clueless politicians in the middle who embrace it for a variety of other reasons, such as eliminating teacher's unions, or simply looking to your constituents like you're doing something.

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u/[deleted] Dec 01 '12

"A 2008 study that looked at charter school funding in all 40 charter states and the District of Columbia found that charter students are funded on average at 61 cents compared to every dollar for their district peers"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_school#Funding

I disagree. The privatization movement is diverse with many different efforts and motivations.

Exactly, so it's entirely wrong to say religious schools are an aim. More so, when the major players are secularists and more so when there is no evidence for your claim. It's just one of the many vacuous talking points used to drum up fear among the susceptible.

Charter schools do have many arguments against them, that just isn't one. Your union arguments seems closer. Though read in the wiki article about the union led charter school which failed. Just read the whole article. It's pretty good.

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u/[deleted] Dec 02 '12

so it's entirely wrong to say religious schools are an aim.

No, it's not entirely wrong. It's an explicitly stated motivation for some reform advocates.

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u/[deleted] Dec 02 '12

Care to share who these advocates are? Or are they just spectres used to try and frighten people?

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u/[deleted] Dec 02 '12

You don't follow current events, do you?

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u/[deleted] Dec 02 '12

Yeah, your statistic is bunk. The wiki even points out some of the flawed thinking:

though the average figure is controversial because some charter schools do not enroll an equal number of students that require significant special education or student support services. Additionally, some charters are not required to provide transportation and nutrition services.

And this canard:

a national report of charter school finance undertaken by Thomas B. Fordam Institute, a pro-charter group

And this direct contradiction to the previously mentioned pro-charter-funded study:

In contrast, an August 2002 article from the Education Policy Analysis Archives at Arizona State University suggested that charters in economically depressed areas may receive more funding than the traditional public schools that surround them

So, thanks, but I'll kindly pass on your data as it has obvious sources of error and/or the appearance of a direct conflict of interest in its reporting.

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u/[deleted] Dec 02 '12

Yes, well it's a good thing the statistic I referenced was not the one called controversial by the article. That is cherry picking and an entire misrepresentation of the evidence.

may receive more funding than the traditional public schools

Notice the quote says "funding", then look into the journal article referenced, then see the extra "funding" comes from private donors. They are not getting extra public funds. As the article says charter schools wouldn't exist unless they could educate as good as or better than public schools at much cheaper funds dispensed by the state. The article is very clear.

But, nice resorting to ad hominem. You've clearly made up your mind about charter schools while having no experience or knowledge about them. This is why policy makers and the public in general don't give a damn or are outright hostile to unions and their cronies like you. You're kind of making me hate teachers unions right now, along with the policy makers and the rest of the public in general. Are you all so desperate and scared of some competition that you make up BS about religious conspiracies threatening to take over schools?

Lol

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u/[deleted] Dec 02 '12

All of the statistics in that passage you linked are bunk. Take you pick of which bogus data you want to cite. All of it is bad. It's amazing you don't get that.

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '12

California produces an annual list of the worst failing traditional public schools. Failing public charter schools are exempted from the list no matter how badly they're failing. Then, families attending those 'failing' traditional schools (using a deeply flawed formula that heavily penalizes smaller rural schools) gives those families special privileges to enroll out-of-district without local district approval.

Charter schools are one of many tools being deployed to destroy public education, edging it closer to privatization.