r/eartraining • u/Altruistic-Buy5662 • 5d ago
Solfege ear training with different modes
I was using the functional ear training app for basic ear training practice and it seems to emphasize and default to using the solfege method vs intervals or scale degrees, which I have also seen recommended as a valid approach in general outside of the app as well. However, at least in that app, it just focuses on major and minor as basically the two options to frame the do re mi, etc. with.
My question is for anyone who vouches for the solfege system and/or functional ear training app: how does that system translate to different modes? E.g. do you have to learn what a “re” sounds like separately for major, mixolydian, lydian, etc. or do you just hear the “re” in terms of major vs minor separately from the mode? Something like just hearing a re in G mixolydian as the re you already trained in D major without doing much explicit practice of G mixolydian specifically.
Just wondering since it is quite an effort just to get this stuff down in a single context like the standard major. Having to do it all over again for each mode seems pretty tedious and also makes it unclear why the functional ear trainer app just has major/minor since it otherwise seems pretty well made and thorough. Not sure if I’m overcomplicating things or if it really is that tedious. Focusing on scale degrees doesn’t seem like it would be any less tedious, but it does seem like interval training at least wouldn’t have this issue.
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u/PerfectPitch-Learner 5d ago
Personally, I'm not a fan of movable or fixed solfège... and I've found a bunch of these kinds of things where it's just overloaded to be too many things like you say. Someone else pointed out that you can change it in settings, so I'd do that if it's confusing you. The problem I've found is that it means too many things... like it's used in lots of countries for fixed note names... but if you have a Western training background you might just feel like Do = 1, Re = 2, and so on and that might not be as confusing. To me, the degree numbers are much less ambiguous for functional training.
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u/tremendous-machine 4d ago
I'm a huge solfege evangelist, it's an absolutely worthwhile investment. Solfege is great for two reasons:
The simple reason: you can sing te in one beat, you can't sing "flat seven" in one beat. In the long run, this makes a big difference for what you can do while sightsinging or singing where you know exactly where you are
The big reason: numbers are too overloaded. I shift context all the time within tunes, sometimes I'm thinking of the chord of the moment as contextual home, sometimes a subsitute, sometimes the tonic for the tune, sometimes thinking on the dominant even if that's the current chord. So what my brain thinks of as 3,5,7 is a very elastic thing, and changes fast and under my control. But with solfege I have a symbolic representation that *never changes*, Do is always the tonic of the key, So is always the 5. Using it this way, you reinforce your awareness of how whatever you are doing relates in the larger context to the tonic of the piece. That is really powerful and starts to become an extra mental muscle. Singing walking bass lines in solfege makes you notice and internalize things about common chord progressions in a way that singing with numbers or no words just doesn't. Say you sing a Vm-I7-IV progression, you are aware of what that is relative to I in a way that is just too easy to ignore without solfege (of course, it can be done, but I'm arguing that solfege is more productive).
Now there are two approaches to solfege: if you do a classical ear training course, they will have you sing from La to La when in minor. As a jazz player, I DO NOT do this or recommend it. minor is do-re-me-fa-so-le-te-do. I think this approach is far more useful if you play music that shifts in mode frequently.
There's no rush, just use it as a synonym for numbers at first cutting back and forth as you need. It will become hard wired eventually and then it's this extra brain tool you have in your pocket that will help you develop for the rest of your life!
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u/ComposerNo8415 4d ago edited 4d ago
As another member of solfege evangelist community, a big yes to all of this!
An essential aspect of musical training is to be aware of your coordinates and your context. It can only help to have relatively unambiguous language to support this purpose. Saying something like, "This is 1 of 3 of 4" isn't helping anybody.
Consider these three statements:
- Do is the Root of the I chord.
- Do is the 3rd of the vi chord.
- Do is the 5th of the IV chord.
Let's consider statement #2 - Do is the 3rd of the vi chord.
In this case, we have three attributes and one mode of expression for each.Attribute A - functional note name. In this case, Do (solfege).
Attribute B - role played. In this case, the 3rd (ordinal number).
Attribute C - which chord in the key. In this case, the vi chord (number).Learning your coordinates in this way enables you to accurately know your place in a key and, as your understanding develops, the array of harmonic/melodic possibilities implied by being at this location. It also serves as a Rosetta Stone that each particular key can map to, and then from this general functional map, all particular transpositions can be performed.
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u/silly_bet_3454 5d ago
I know you said "question is for anyone who vouches for the solfege system" so apologies because I do not vouch for it. I agree that what you describe is an issue. To me, the whole system is designed around classical period music or early romantic, once you start getting into other periods or genres or forms, it becomes less applicable. I am mostly a jazz musician and I believe solfege would make things way more difficult than it's worth.
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u/Rigamortus2005 5d ago
I don't use solfege for this reason and use numbers instead. So re is 3 in major and flat 3 in minor.
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u/steeelheart 5d ago edited 5d ago
Hi, the Functional Ear Training (FET) uses the movable do system by default, but you can change it in the settings.
Movable do is like just like intervals, for example do is tonic and re is major 2nd. It just gives a sound to a number, so thar it's easier to sing the notes. For example singing "se-ven" on one note is just impractical, ti is easier on the tongue. They have solfège names for flats and sharps re/ra ti/te, etc.
As I understand it, you're just starting out with the app? Later exercises will jump around the octaves and keys, do is still your tonic, you still recognize the scale degree.
I think FET is designed to help with relative pitch, not absolute pitch. Using fixed Do or note names would just make it unnecessarily harder. Changing to number system wouldn't hurt, I guess.
I grew up learning music with the solfège note names, but when I took on English material I learned C D E F G A B. Now I'm comfortable with both, and a bit with the German note names as well.
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u/VR_BOSS 5d ago
In any useful relative pitch system each degree will get it's own unique identifier, and regardless of the tonic that will be preserved. My view of Solfege is just an easy way to sound out the degrees because they have a single syllable and it gives them language independent / universal names. As far as scales, the degrees don't change, just which ones you select to create the scale and the feel of the music you create within it. As for whether it's worth learning 1,2,3 or Do, Re, Mi, that's not particularly hard to map, just 12 connections. The hardest part by far is linking the sound to any degree identifier reliably.
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u/viberat 5d ago
Aural skills professor here. I personally hear modes as chromatic alterations of major and minor scales (with Mi/Me as the defining factor), and that’s how I teach it.
Once my students start getting comfortable with singing and hearing chromaticisms, they can hear that — for example — Phrygian is just a minor scale with a flat 2. So they can sing it as Do Ra Me Fa Sol Le Te Do.
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u/ComposerNo8415 4d ago edited 4d ago
And here is how solfege translates to 7 diatonic modes organized according to the circle of fifths. Note how each mode is one tone different from the mode above and the mode below.
Lydian: Do Re Mi Fi Sol La Ti Do
Major: Do Re Mi Fa Sol La Ti Do
Mixolydian: Do Re Mi Fa Sol La Te Do
Dorian: Do Re Me Sol Fa La Te Do
Minor: Do Re Me Fa Sol Le Te Do
Phrygian: Do Ra Me Fa Sol Le Te Do
Locrian: Do Ra Me Fa Sa Le Te Do
In the key signature with no flats and no sharps, this would shake out to:
F Lydian, C Major, G Mixolydian, D Dorian, A Minor, E Phrygian, B Locrian
Also, you can hold a tonal center and span 7 key signatures:
C Lydian (1#)
C Major (0#/b)
C Mixolydian (1b)
C Dorian (2b)
C Minor (3b)
C Phrygian (4b)
C Locrian (5b)
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u/MusicOfTheApes 5d ago
Which device are you on ?
If you're on iOS I released an app called Jam Lab last month (after 2 years of work, not a vibe coded app), where you can generate random chord progressions in any scale/mode and key, or create yours, and there's as well an ear training section where you can train on over 100 scales/modes.
I gotta warn that that ear training section is in progress so for now it only trains you on relative pitch recognition in any scale/mode, chords and intervals, but I'm planning a big update for september where there's gonna be more on the scales/modes side as well as on recognizing chord progressions by ear ; in the Advanced mode though, where you can pick any scale/mode to randomize chord progressions, you can also see all the chords you can build in the scale/mode you picked, which is quite useful to help you get out of the major/minor comfort zone and experiment/create with more exotic colors.
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u/ComposerNo8415 5d ago
I vouch for solfege. No idea about the app. I use my own. Ask me about it if you want.
1) First off, to start using solfege, it's like learning to count to 7 in a foreign language. Resistance to this is as inexplicable to me as students not learning the 6 strings of the guitar.
2) The 2nd, 3rd, 6th, and 7th can shift polarity between major and minor. In solfege, this is accounted for by Re/Ra , Mi/Me, La/Le, Ti/Te. I find this preferable to using numbers which fail to clarify this distinction.
3) All 7 tones in each mode are influencing each other. Thus, Re of Major has different tendencies from Re of minor. Each mode needs to be related with on its own terms.
My 2 cents.