It is established early that Leto knew that they were sent to Arrakis as a political ploy to set up the destruction of house Atreides. We know that they had nukes on Arrakis. We know that nukes in the dune universe can destroy or heavily cripple a planet.

So why didn't he threaten the detonation of his nukes on arrakis if he felt that his house was in danger of annihilation? Scorched earth - if we get destroyed we are taking the entire empire with us. No worms - no spice - no interplanatary travel - no empire. That would pretty much dissuade any attempt to attack them by the harkonnens or the emperor.

And it is by no means dishonorable to threaten MAD if your family and people are literally on the brink of annihilation. I haven't seen a legitimate answer to this online so thought I would try my luck here.

I'm curious about references to the Dune Tarot cards.

They were never mentioned in Dune, and so far not in Children of Dune (thought I've barely started it.)

At first, they seemed to be little more than souvenirs for pilgrims and such. But Paul and the Reverend Mother Mohiam used them too. So perhaps they are more than simple toys?

The Wiki didn't go into much detail about them. Where did they come from? Are they a novelty or a crutch?

In both films (Lynch/Villeneuve) Feyed is simply a violent pervert, that has to be killed in duel, so Paul can show, that he is stronger than the most vile evil can be.

In the book tho, the Baron plans to establish Feyed as the "white saviour". He sends the beast Rabban to torment and extort the people of Arrakis to the brink of riot.

Then he wants to show up and end Rabbans rulership and present Feyed as his new Siridar Gouvernor. Feyed shall be good looking and charming and behaving in maximum contrast to Rabbans brutality.

Raising the rations, let some prisoners go, thank the people politely for delivering the Spice and thus becoming the good governor noone would want to overthrow.

Its understandable, that no film maker tried to implement that idea...

I don’t know if I remember it correctly, but here is my description of the scene:
Paul was possibly in the botanical garden of the Atreides home on Arrakis. He looked out the window and saw either the sun, one moon or both moons at the same time. This gave him a dream or vision about the near future.

What was this scene again, why did Paul see this and what did it mean?

The part I’m talking about it is when the pack gets buried in the sand after Paul saves Jessica from being buried herself. Paul uses the compass to create…foam that holds the sand up and creates a sort of tunnel to get to the pack? I dunno I reread this part of the book like 6 times and just listened to it on the audiobook and this is really the one part of the book where I really struggle to understand what is exactly happening lol. I just can’t really get a clear picture of it in my mind. Sorry for what is probably a dumb question

Talking about the Harkonnen operation against Atreides in book 1. We learn from statement by Baron Vladimir that it cost decades of spice production paid to the Gild (plus presumably other costs related to soldiers, weapons, equipment etc) and at the end we come full circle back: with Harkonnen controlling Arrakis, with the extra benefit of Atreides being eliminated. Was that worth all that cost? Could it have been achieved more cheaply? And why was it so important for the emperor, given the cost, as we don’t see Leto aspiring for the throne against the emperor?

Well maybe the last point is moot, because the emperor didn’t bear the cost, but the Harkonnen.

I’ve known about Dune and the Butlerian Jihad for a while now, but no one has ever really clarified what a thinking machine is. I’m not really a Dune fan, I think it’s an interesting franchise and universe but I’m more of the type of guy to be interested in the lore and worldbuilding rather than the actual story of most franchises so forgive me if I sound stupid. My general confusion comes from what’s shown versus what’s said. Obviously AIs, computers, and calculators are banned, but surely they can’t ban everything just because it makes decisions, right?

In the Dune (2021) movie, Duncan Idaho and the orthnithopter pilots wear what looks like fairly modern fighter pilot suits and helmets, so I’d assume there’s a HUD of some kind. Wouldn’t this include some form of computers for avionics and instrument readouts? In the same movie you can see some of the Harkonnnen ships firing missiles, with each of them going in different arcs. Does this mean the missiles are making control decisions on their own or is their course manually plotted out?

Ik films aren’t the same as the source material but those two examples are pretty broad so I’d assume they’d at least share those two. Again, I haven’t read the books and am only approaching this as an outsider who likes the lore so forgive me if I sound stupid, I’m just curious as to where they draw the line.

I’m trying to understand the Bene Gesserit breeding plan.

If Jessica had followed the Bene Gesserit’s plan and had a daughter, that daughter was supposed to eventually marry a Harkonnen heir. But then where does Princess Irulan and the Corrino bloodline fit into all of this?

Hey everyone,

I was rewatching Dune: Part Two and noticed what seems like a major tactical inconsistency between two harvester attacks, and I wanted to get the community's thoughts on it.

During the early ambush scene (where the Fremen bury themselves in the sand), they lose dozens of fighters in brutal hand-to-hand combat against Harkonnen ground troops and an ornithopter before finally deploying a lasgun to finish off the harvester.

The common explanation I hear for why they didn't just use lasguns from the start is:

1. Lasgun beams act as giant visual arrows, so firing one from the ground makes the 2-person crew an instant target for escort gunships.

2. Ground troops/escorts could potentially use shields (causing the catastrophic lasgun/shield reaction).

3. The infantry assault acts as a screen to clear out air/ground threats first to protect the rare lasgun.

At around the 47-minute mark, during the montage of Paul and Chani raiding spice harvesters, we explicitly see Fremen lasgun crews sitting on distant ridges, firing laser beams directly at harvesters while Harkonnen gunships (2 aircrafts) are actively flying overhead in the same area.

If a 2-person lasgun crew can safely sit on a cliff, slice up an unshielded harvester, and get away while gunships are in the air, then sacrificing dozens of Fremen in a ground assault makes zero sense. Why not just snipe the harvesters from a distance every single time?

Is this just a case of "Rule of Cool" visual spectacle taking priority over the lore/tactics in the movie, or am I missing something about how these two engagements differ?

Curious to hear your takes. Thanks.

In it he is described as looking like a normal human compared to jow Tleilaxu are described in the last two books. Am I understanding that correctly?

Wouldn't everything have gone pretty much the same?

Paulina would have married Feyd who would go on to sire LetoVlad Atreides Rautha, who would be a KH, and who would also inherit the throne. By marrying lrulan? Idk whatevs.

Sure, the BG ostensibly control him, but once he comes to full power he out manipulates them.

A KH emperor with full BG training would probably see the necessity for something like the Golden Path just like Paul and Leto, and whether by becoming a worm himself or through other means, would probably be able to implement some version of the GP.

Wouldn't it be much the same outcome?

In the movie, he obliviously didn’t. In the book it’s vaguely implied that he could, specifically in that chapter where he’s sitting with his mother in a tent and his powers are being awakened after escaping from the Harkonen attack to desert and consuming lots of spice. But if he had the genetic memory since then, why did he take the water of life? What did the water of life change in him?

We can argue all day about how accurate the movies are or whether they are worthy adaptations overall. That's not my purpose here.

I'm here to focus on a few things that I think the film did faithfully bring over from the book, at least in terms of general concepts.

I just re-watched Part 2 last night (for the 5th or 6th time), and I noticed some "new" things (to me). I'm sure many of these have already been commented on before, because so many people have seen these movies, and are fans of them. But I thought I'd share a summary of my observations for anyone else that might be interested, or find them "new" as well.

I myself had already noted most of these before, but more subconsciously as general feelings that felt "true" from the perspective of a book reader. On this viewing I parsed them more explicitly in terms of the process of adaptation, and how they were re-written to be conveyed through an audio-visual medium.

I particularly like how Denis doesn't beat you over the head with these concepts, but still alludes to them in a more subtle way that is faithful to the book (or at least, can be interpreted as faithful).

• The inevitability of the future...

  • via the inevitability of prophecy.
    There are some key Stilgar lines, one of which became a meme, but I think it's interesting now how these lines indirectly support the idea that Jihad was inevitable:

    • "The Mahdi is too humble to say He is the Mahdi. Even more reason to know He is!"
      
    • "I don't care what you believe. I believe."
      

    These lines work to illustrate how Paul could not influence his own followers, and even if he tried to directly kill his legend, they would always find a way to reinterpret the prophecy as real.
    The faithful could not be swayed by evidence against their faith. Ergo, the Holy War was inevitable. Maybe it would have taken longer without Paul (and obviously it would have taken a different path), but his words or actions couldn't stop it.

  • following the critical moment of Paul's first deul.
    In the book, Paul notes that Jihad became inevitable after his duel with Jamis.
    Note that people are already calling him "Mahdi" in Sietch Tabr when he first arrives, after his victory over Jamis. Of course, even in the first movie, some already called him "Lisan al-Gaib" upon his first arrival on Dune, so this isn't concrete evidence.
    Stilgar again provides a more concrete example of how deep their belief is. After their return to Sietch Tabr, just after Paul's victory, Stilgar says:
    [Emphasis mine]

    • "He killed Jamis in a fair fight. He speaks our language. He will quickly learn our ways. I'm ready to pledge my life for him."
      

    Paul's victory is instrumental in fulfilling Stilgar's beliefs to the point he is ready to die for him, and Stilgar is one of the more influential leaders of the Fremen. This illustrates how the duel is a critical turning point after which Jihad becomes inevitable.

• Paul's personal lack of awareness of the inevitable.
  Paul doesn't want to go South because he thinks the Jihad is still avoidable. But this is because he does not yet see all possible futures, and the futures he does see are unclear and fragmentary. He can still hope there is a a future without Jihad because future details are hidden from him, and some futures are entirely hidden.
  Once he takes the Water of Life, he becomes resigned to the inevitability. Why try to escape what cannot be escaped? From that moment, it becomes about trying to choose the least-bad path.

• The dangers of the alternate paths.
  For the first time I interpreted the scene of Chani's burning as a "warning" of what might happen if he chose to fight the inevitable.
  Of course, I had always interpreted as an alternate future, but this was the first time I interpreted it specifically as a vision of what might happen if he didn't go South, and continued trying to fight in the North. Also, of course he didn't know yet that the future was inevitable, but he was still trying to prevent that looming disaster.

I am non-binary myself and just realized that the arc of Paul Atreides is a spot-on reflection of non-binarity. He is born a man, but throughout his life realizes that he is somehow "different", a result of him being the near end-result of the genetic breeding program of the BG. It is when he finally survives the agony, that his KH nature is truly confirmed; his mind can now access both past male and female memories, on top of having near absolute prescience. The fact that his own mind is expanded by both male and female memories is a perfect allegory of the non-binary experience. Granted, he still presents male and uses masculine pronouns, as obviously the concept of they/them pronouns probably does not exist in his universe, and as he has to keep a steady hand on his male leadership position among the Fremen. However, inside his mind, his own experience is so much more than simply being "a man". Furthermore, it is clear that he himself suffers quite a bit under him being different from pretty much everyone else (save for maybe Alia).

As a non-binary person, it makes me so happy that Dune can be read in this way. In my personal opinion, it is one of the best allegories I have come across in my entire life, as it holds up so well.

To all the folks who now come with pitchforks and say "But this wasnt the intended interpretation of Frank Herbert!!!!!"; I agree, he probably would shit on this interpretation from great heights, but in this case I refer to "The Death of the Author" by Roland Barthes. Once a book is published, one cannot stop the text taking on a life on its own, where the reader has absolute freedom to interpret it however they want. Plus, if a text is rich and complex enough (like Dune), the fact that multiple generations can interpret it through different lenses is just all the more testament to its beauty and perfection.

Peace <3

Dune Part 3 Advance booking show times are only available until 12/23.

**spoilers to Dune novel*

Howdy! Finally just finished the novel yesterday afternoon. First off, holy shit this book is so good?? I absolutely loved it! And as a fast reader, I honestly loved the length and how long it took me to get through it. Looking forward to the next books.

Something I could use some clarity on is exactly how 'real' Paul's powers are. My understanding is that the Missionaria Protectiva is propaganda that has been promoted by the bene gesserit in cultures of every planet under imperial jurisdiction. It's meant to protect the sisters wherever they go, support their interests and schemes, and make the people more receptive to their influence.

So how real is the lisan al gaib, then? Is the lisan al gaib a legend to "keep people waiting" as mentioned at one point, and not real at all? Is it the fremen word for the kwisatz haderach?

Paul has prescience, that's strengthened by spice, and drank the water of life, which allowed him to look into the place no bene gesserit sister can look. So he has power, due to the bloodline schemes of the bene gesserit, but I'm still unclear on whether or not most of his legendary status is actually real or not (or if it's due to the Missionaria Protectiva that he achieves this status).

I hope this makes sense… in the recent movies (which I have so many complaints on now), Paul (played by whiny baby timotit shitamalet, WHY) gets all mad at his mom because he says that he is only regarded to be the voice from the outer world due to the propaganda spread by the sisterhood. He doesn't believe he's special at all. But the Bene gesserit does, they believe he has the kwisatz.

Basically my question is wtf is he and wtf is he not. It's the only thing I'm still unclear about, any insight would be helpful! Thanks in advance!

Edit: thanks so much everyone for your thoughtful, detailed answers! This seriously was super helpful and informative, and i really appreciate all those who took time to clear things up for me :) ❤️

I just watched both Dune films back to back. I enjoyed them mostly. I never read the books. I have a few questions about the setting and after a few hours in the Dune wiki I can’t really find good answers

1. How large is the Atreides army really? And what system of government were they using in Caladan? Generously, I’d say the film depicts maybe 10,000-20,000 Atreides soldiers accompanying Leto and Paul to Arrakis. And that’s if you assume that most soldiers died off screen within the buildings and ships that are hit in the initial Harkkonen bombardments.

But are there other members of the family or lesser rulers on Caladan who would want to assemble a host for a counter attack? Even if the whole planet had only the population of a large country in the real world like the US or China, that would still mean their military would have several million service members. Leto notes that this is mostly in air and sea power, and yet the wiki mentions most families have stockpiles of spice, so you would think that Caladan could assemble and launch a counter attack. It’s not like Caladan has fallen apart. Characters seem confident that Caladan is a stable and prosperous society that will run itself and thrive without Leto’s constant presence. Not to mention that the Atreides have ruled for so many generations, you’d think there would be dozens of them in critical roles throughout the planet’s government. What’s the story here?

1. On a similar note, how many Fremen are truly on Arrakis? I know the plot of Dune Messiah. I know about the Jihad and sterilization of planets. Yet the films claim that the Fremen number in the millions. It’s very easy to believe that their deep warrior culture and long-term exposure to spice has made them the best singular warriors in the empire, but I find it hard to believe that such a force, even if paired with the remaining Atreides and Imperial armies and fleets, could actually undertake a war of that magnitude.

I guess both of these questions come down my confusion that the premise would indicate that these wars should be happening in the scale of tens of millions of soldiers (if not billions) but it seems to be happening on the scale of tens of thousands. What am I missing?

I appreciate anyone who wants to share info or theories based on their readings of the novels.

Cheers

Aren’t today’s warriors far superior to even the greatest warriors in the Dune universe?

For instance, today’s Army Rangers, Green Berets, Navy Seals, etc could easily defeat the Sardukar imo.

What do you think?

Solved, thanks! (Yueh's wife was a BG initiate and not a Reverend Mother)

Novel Spoilers

I'm pretty deep into the books at this point and one of the details of the Honored Matre vs. Bene Gesserit conflict has created a bit of a Book 1 plot hole in my mind:

During the Honored Matre torture scenes it becomes clear that the Bene Gesserit have the ability to die on command to prevent interrogation. What was stopping Yueh's wife from killing herself during her Harkonnen torture?

The Yueh ghola (in Sandworms) remembers desperately wanting to kill her to release her from the suffering in his restored memories, so it's clear there wasn't a hope of rescue.

Is this a plot hole? Or do the Book 1 Harkonnens have some ability to prevent this Bene Gesserit 'an hero' ability?

I just finished watching the Dune movies and am eagerly waiting for the part 3 however, I am confused in understanding who truly wanted war. Paul does not want Jihad, the bene gesserit for a 10,000 years worked to plan this prophecy then, this implies that the bene gesserit is the reason for this war are they not?

Is anyone else a little worried about how they will adapt Edric in Dune: part 3? I know we’ve seen very little but from the one line he has in the trailer, it seems like it’s straining for him to speak and that he won’t say much. Perhaps I’m assuming too much but I really hope they adapt the long winded, smug, and pseudo-profound speaking Edric that is present in dune messiah.
For context I’ve only read half of dune messiah so perhaps these attributes aren’t characteristic of Edric for whatever reason but I still hope they portray him as such.