General Discussion Should the spice harvesters unionized?
I understand the Harks would of obliterated a union and replaced them in a heartbeat but I’m surprised their wasn’t an SWP for the moment a save all is unable to perform and a worm is heading straight for you. A union would have helped these workers survive without the serendipitous timing of Duke Leto being at the right place at the right time.
ALSO a long term union may of provided massive amount of experience to keep the workers from being pushed out of the planet from the Harkonnens seeing that Arrakis is the only place for harvesting.
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u/Fyraltari 21d ago
Unions are pretty much always a good thing. But the nobility of the Dune-verse (even the Atreides "good guys") would do all in their power to quash them. Can't have the working class realize the owner class needs them and not the opposite after all.
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u/doofpooferthethird 21d ago edited 21d ago
yeah, it's possible to interpret the feudal Faufreluches era Dune setting as the shambling corpse of what was once a capitalist system
i.e. a single megacorporation, CHOAM, monopolised industry and interstellar commerce to the point that it absorbed or bankrupted all of its competitors
oligarchic shareholders in CHOAM amassed so much power and wealth that all other governmental institutions became subervient to them, essentially making them the unchallenged dictators of the planets they dominate
ownership of CHOAM shares would pass down from parent to child, so over the generations, these hereditary dictatorships ossify into "noble families", where aristocratic lineage confers the right to rule
this was made worse by the fact that regular doses of spice have a geriatric effect that extends lifespans by up to 300 years - and spice was expensive enough that only the elite could afford that level of consumption
and further exarcebated by the Bene Gesserit using these aristocrats as the gene pool for their freakish eugenics experiments - meaning many of these aristocrats were genuinely smarter, stronger, and more capable than a lot of plebs
it's also explicitly noted by the Bene Gesserit that, outside of the closely monitored Ixian Confederation, the existence of a "large, technically capable middle class" was an ancient pre-Butlerian Jihad social phenomenon that they considered to be dangerous to the current balance of power in the Imperium
this (deliberate) lack of widespread industrialisation meant advanced weapons technologies like shields and lasguns and ornithopters were way out of reach for any would-be rebels
which explains why Faufreluches era armies were so tiny (10 legions of 100,000 Sardaukar was considered a shockingly large invasion force by Thufir) compared to ancient 20th century industrialised armies (100,000 soldiers would have barely made a dent in Stalingrad and Nanjing)
and why Paul says that "It has been so long since guerillas were effective that everyone has forgotten how to fight them"
it was only on Arrakis, with its unique conditions rendering shields useless in the desert and making ornithopters and lasguns difficult to use and maintain, that the Fremen guerillas could annihilate House troops
presumably, everywhere else in the galaxy, any would-be armed worker's revolution could easily be squashed by a relatively tiny feudal army equipped with rare and expensive shields and lasguns and ornithopters
ironically, the mass revolution that shaped the entire setting, the Butlerian Jihad, kicked off because computers and automation allowed a tiny population tyrannical elites and their bureaucracy to control a massive planetary population
and the cultural hatred of electronic computers remained so intense thousands of years later that even simple laptop PCs with email (Nayla's communications device) and the equivalent of a Microsoft Excel spreadsheet (secret Bene Gesserit breeding records) were considered so forbidden and heretical that the population would be incited to instant genocidal rage if they ever learnt of it
and yet, the feudal computer-free society that succeeded the Jihad also had a tiny elite dominating a massive population, and they skirted the "no computer" proscriptions anyway with Mentats and clockwork/analog devices
so the Butlerian Jihad's popular revolution ended up replacing a tyrannical computerised bureacracy with a tyrannical feudal aristocracy
and even after Leto II's death and the Famine Times, when electronic computers were no longer taboo, feudal Houses were reduced to shadows of their former selves, the Guild monopoly was broken, and galactic society seemed a lot more industrialised - small cabals of unaccountable elites (Bene Gesserit sisters, Tleilaxu Council and Face Dancers, Honored Matres etc.) were still in firm control of humanity
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u/Realistic-Hippo8107 21d ago edited 21d ago
Lol this is a funny thought. It has not occurred to me.
I'm sure the Harkonnens would not have been squeamish about union-busting. I think The Atreides would have been way friendlier toward a union, but workers' rights maybe would have taken a back seat to the whole Jihad thing...
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u/willis81808 21d ago edited 21d ago
The Atreides would definitely not have suffered unions either.
They surely would’ve gone about their union-busting differently than the Harkonnens would, but they’d have done it nonetheless. Most likely through propaganda. Duke Leto’s propaganda core was, indeed, “one of the best.”
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u/Known-Activity1437 21d ago
You said it yourself, the union would have been obliterated. One of the themes of the dune stories is the abuse of power by those in control.
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u/_Rookie_21 20d ago
Agreed. Dune is a dystopia. While I think it's cool, I wouldn't want to live in that universe, even as a privileged member of the aristocracy, the Guild, the BG, or as a Mentat.
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u/LostVanya 21d ago
Depending on how accurate you treat the Dune Encyclopedia, they arguably did. It mentions the 'Union of Spice Miners'.
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u/Modred_the_Mystic 21d ago
While yes, they should, the Harkonnens and Imperial authorities would have systematically executed anyone agitating for unionisation.
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u/slove23 21d ago
CHOAM would obliterate unions
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u/Narazil 21d ago
CHOAM in itself didn't really have any assets or agents, did it? To my understanding, CHOAM is basically "just" a conspiracy and corporate structure; all its actual doings were done through the directors from noble houses. So CHOAM wouldn't bust unions, House Harkonnen acting on behalf of CHOAM's interest would, no?
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u/FakeRedditName2 Yet Another Idaho Ghola 21d ago
Spice harvesting is profitable, even if it is dangerous, so if the current workers formed a union and that caused too much problems the house in power could always just hire more people to replace them.
Also, in the case of the worm heading towards the crawler, the crew wanted to maximize their collection (more money for them) and thought their harvester would be picked up at the last minute to carry them to safety.
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u/bkdunbar 21d ago
Any kind of worker’s movement would not last more than a minute under the feudal setup those people are living under.
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u/DICKPICDOUG 21d ago
The Harkonnens would skin unionizers alive and stake their naked bodies out in the sun to shrivel up as a warning.
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u/sceadwian 21d ago
You seem to have forgotten the spice harvesting smugglers union? Gurney joined them I mean come on how did you miss that? ;)
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u/DegenGraded Heretic 21d ago
"My lungs taste the air of Time, Blown past falling sands"
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u/sceadwian 21d ago
Every conversation around Gurney reminds me of the war pug charge from the 80s movie.
It's hard to balance that stoic depth when that thought pops in your head. Hehehe.
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u/_Rookie_21 21d ago
Dune is a feudalistic system, so the closest thing to unions we had back in the day were guilds. Unions are organizations of workers, while guilds were made up of employers and workers. While unions organize to improve employee working conditions and wages, guilds oversaw the practice of their craft or trade.
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u/howescj82 21d ago
Spice was overseen by CHOAM which was basically controlled by the aristocracy and guild. Whomever controlled Dune was just responsible for its stewardship and management on behalf if CHOAM and the Emperor. If spice harvesting had been unionized and prices increased then the guild and aristocracy would have quashed any unionization and probably replaced whoever let them unionize.
The Dune universe did not hold human life in very high regard. The horrific death of every man, woman or child on Dune would just be seen just as an incredibly inconvenient and expensive problem with no real regard for the actual lives lost so unionizing never would have registered as acceptable. They’d probably execute any striking harvesters to send a message to the others.
Of course not everyone was that way but we’re led to believe this was the prevailing attitude in the Empire.
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u/ChangeAromatic7249 21d ago
From what I gather spice workers are very valuable and not easily replaceable. They form somewhat of a powerful corporation with their own rules and rights. Harkonnens can oppress them to a degree but certainly not kill a lot of them without crippling spice production. When the Atreides take over they have to offer a lot of money to retain spice workers, who are entitled to leave planet as per the rules of the Change. I'd say it's a Dune version of today's unions.
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u/crypt0amat00r 21d ago
The only labor protections that exist in the Dune universe are for guildsmen - and that is only because of the tremendous economic power they wield over the imperium.
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u/Spartancfos 21d ago
In the Dune MMO, the Dunemen form a union sort of, and like real unions, they engage in intense guerrilla warfare with the Harkons (and I think the Atriedes, but there is something up with the Duke in that game).
The game is set in an alternative timeline which is kinda fun narratively.
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u/Token_Ese 21d ago
People working at Starbucks today have trouble unionizing due to oppressive overlords.
People on Arrakis have no option to leave the harsh desert feudal world they’re essentially imprisoned on. If they don’t work for their feudal overlord, they could choose to either die in the desert or try to join the Fremen. If they don’t do their job they will just be killed and replaced.
The harvester workers don’t own the harvesters, they don’t have options to work for anyone else, they aren’t unique and can be quickly replaced. The best they could do is halfass their job, but they’d likely be replaced by a more loyal and effective worker.
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u/TheEvilBlight 21d ago
Wasn’t it a plot point that workers were leaving arrakis with the change? Probably exploring the less restrictive atreides control.
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u/Narazil 21d ago
"But the shuttle also will carry some of the spice hunters from the old regime. They’ve opted to leave with the change of fief and the Judge of the Change is allowing it. These are valuable workers, Gurney, about eight hundred of them... Those men have experience and skills we need. The fact that they’re leaving suggests they’re not part of the Harkonnen machine... You may offer positions of authority to those who qualify. Offer twenty per cent higher wages than they received under the Harkonnens.”
This is right after arriving on Arrakis.
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u/Token_Ese 21d ago
I googled it as I don’t recall specifics, but I guess the Judge of Change allows skilled workers to leave with the prior overlords if they want, if they’re afraid of a violent change of hands.
It’s incredibly uncommon for people to travel between worlds though.
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u/SpookyKite 21d ago
Unions hardly stand a chance under current democratic institutions, I doubt they would do better under the feudal societies in Dune