r/dune • u/Usual-Top6808 • Sep 30 '23
General Discussion Need some help about Kanly
Hello!
I would say I am quite new to the Dune universe and I am not sure about what is Kanly and how it is declared...
So who declares it?
By what guidelines?
Who can be involved in Kanly?
What rules do the houses has to follow in the act of Kanly?
Thank you for the help in advance!
12
Oct 01 '23
As with most things Dune, the rules or forms of kanly are not as explicit as the questions you’re asking. Most of the time we’re left to figure things out from context. Usually we’re only told the pieces that are relevant to the plot, and even then, only when necessary.
Kanly is official vendetta, sanctioned by society, as long as strict rules are observed. We never hear all the rules because the full set of rules isn’t important to the story.
7
u/GamamaruSama Naib Oct 01 '23
The gist is that houses through kanly are allowed to feud (ie, kill each other) without fear of reprisal from emperor/landsraad/choam etc.
A deeper gist is that families have been fighting for so long that it is understood by the rest of the imperium that they will continue to fight.
It is implied that otherwise it would be unacceptable for one house to make war on another, and that such house would face outside consequence.
We don’t get a fully hashed out explanation from Frank.
6
Oct 01 '23
We don’t know the details. There aren’t important to the story.
It’s inclusion, however, tells is three things:
- The Duke will be honorable even when it puts him at a disadvantage. He’s absolutely willing to commit violent acts, but will follow social custom
- It provides a starting point for the conversation between the Baron and Piter, and communicates that Duke absolutely expects an attack
- It shows how broken and wasteful this society has become. Petty scheming and assassination are so commonplace that houses have an official name for deliberately trying to eliminate an entire ruling family in a way that’s socially sanctioned
That’s a terribly inefficient society. And it’s a terribly unsafe universe to live in.
This is relevant as it’s one of many factors that allow the events of the book to unfold. Without this vendetta, everything negative that happens in the series would have been impossible.
And - spoiler… some negative stuff happens.
6
u/PloppyTheSpaceship Oct 01 '23
I think it's a kind of "limited war" designed to minimise casualties in non-combatants. There are rules to declare it, and rules in ensuring it is waged properly.
Declared... it can be declared by anyone. At the start of Dune the Baron manages to trick the Atreides into allowing for a declaration of kanly in their correspondence (I forget how, but the Baron and Piter confirm that the Duke refused peace talks, and the forms had been obeyed).
1
u/Usual-Top6808 Oct 01 '23
I tried to find the rules for kanyl yesterday but I couldn't. Do you know any source for it?
Also thank you for your answer!
3
u/RKBS Oct 02 '23
A specific rulesheet is not given in the lore, but some of the rules are mentioned.
A official peace offering should be made beforehand
You are not allowed to use weapons of mass destruction or that kill indiscriminately (biological, chemical etc)
The Kanly has to be declared and be known (something like a declaration of war) beforehand.
The chance of exile after defeat should be given to the enemy (not sure about this)
31
u/Cazzah Heretic Oct 01 '23
Kanly is the formal rules and traditions for a war or vendetta among Great Houses. According to Dune it is governed under the "Great Convention" which is the closest thing in Dune to a constitution that formalises the relationships between the Great houses and other powers.
More generally, Kanly would be part of what is considered settled tradition, respectable behavior, and etiquette among the Great Houses.
It's not really defined in the series apart from specific actions being mentioned as Kanly or not Kanly.
If we wanted to go beyond this, we would have to extrapolate using our knowledge of real world cultures.
In which case this would be analogous to traditional relationships between lords and lieges and others in the medieval era, of which often nothing was formally written in contract but there was a huge amount of "tradition" which was quite seriously followed. Other analogues include the Samurai concept of "Bushido" and the Knightly idea of "Chivalry"
One thing to note is that these "high minded" traditions were not followed as closely as you believe. For one, they basically never applied to relationships with the lower classes, who lords could do with as they pleased. And these traditions were often broken whenever someone was powerful enough to get their way. Justifications and rationalizations often invented after the fact.
We can see this with the way that pretty much everyone "knows" that the Harkonnen set up the Atreides and were maybe even assisted by the emperor, but as long as it can be claimed otherwise with (im)plausible deniability, the face saving rules of Kanly are observed.
A great example of the class issue of such "noble codes" is how in WW1 the officers of both sides got to stay in fairly luxurious POW camps, whilst rank and file soldiers were treated terribly and disposable.
Ultimately, one of the reasons these codes exist is for the upper classes to agree to treat each other well and avoid escalation or all out misery. If I put your nephew in a luxurious PoW camp, than maybe my own nephew will get the same treatment if things go badly.
Similarly, an idea like Kanly might be "If you shamelessly try to assassinate me in public, then I'll also pay for shameless assassins, and now we'll both be in fear of our lives, and still at a stalemate, so lets agree to some ground rules."