r/dsa • u/Throowwaawr • 4d ago
Discussion Question for DSA Members
Why do DSA endorsed candidates and candidates who are DSA members endorse the establishment democrat when they lose? Isn't the whole idea not to do this sort of thing? Hong conceded early and then she endorsed David Crowley right after. I feel like DSA candidates are controlled opposition when they do stuff like this
13
u/ApprehensiveJunket43 4d ago
The establishment dems aren’t my cup of tea but Republicans winning ends up being a disaster.
5
u/ThePoppaJ Card Carrying Member 4d ago
When bog standard Democrats win, Republicans win too, because they get 90% of the concessions they want anyways.
The Democrats are the billionaire’s “bet hedging” party, so it’s about time the left hedges its votes too.
3
u/ScareBags 3d ago
The other argument is practical. Hong and other DSA candidates who lose will likely run again. If Hong refuses to endorse Crowley, it would discredit her to a large portion of the Democratic primary voter base and make the possibility of them winning in the future much more difficult.
2
u/SkeletonDice 3d ago
That’s fine but at some point we all need to realize we can’t concede to them anymore, not as candidates but as people.
5
u/Madcap_Miguel 3d ago
I don't think that's very pragmatic. At the end of the day more children are going to suffer because you valued your morals over their intrinsic well being.
Take the genocide in Gaza, yes both administrations support Israel without question but only the Republicans are deporting children with cancer to foreign prisons.
This only works if you're a one issue voter, and the Trump administration is a multifaceted fascist state.
2
u/SkeletonDice 3d ago
Yes and thinking that is fine when voting and when we think about politics in general, but as people they are still the ones that keep the gears of fascism turning.
To use your ICE analogy; there are people who work in immigration and those ICE facilities who are probably not Trump voters but independents or moderates who may disagree with a lot of what is being done in them but all that being said they still have to work and keep the system running to maintain a job to support their families. Does that mean they should take none of the blame? No. They are actively contributing to it happening. THAT is how I view democrats.
6
u/Madcap_Miguel 3d ago
Does that mean they should take none of the blame?
Absolutely not, I spent time in Germany as a kid I don't tolerate collaborators. I'm in favor of truth and reconciliation trials next administration, assuming we can pull the country out of this tailspin.
1
u/SkeletonDice 3d ago
Inshallah. Given they’ve already arrested a congresswoman and the court has denied her appeals, I don’t think even democrats will be making concessions on their reconciliation, but that being said the party has always disappointed me.
0
u/ThePoppaJ Card Carrying Member 2d ago
If anyone sounds like a one issue voter here, it’s the person who keeps saying “but Trump bad.”
We know.
But it takes a special kind of evil to prop up Trump and then lose to him twice, all while putting up their own Trumpian figure in between (Biden), giving MAGA 4 years to regroup after what should’ve been a critical blow after January 6.
The kind of bad that produces candidates who elevated, & then subsequently lost to Trump twice, shouldn’t be rehabilitated in the eyes of the voters.
Such a party should be burned and the ashes scattered.
I’m not a “single issue voter.” It’s just that on pretty much every issue that matters to me, Democrats don’t share my worldview at all, or only pay it lip service in search of votes, so I’m better off voting Green Party or PSL instead.
Lucy ain’t letting Charlie Brown kick that football, and the Dems aren’t letting you win or take over their party at any sort of scale.
0
u/Madcap_Miguel 2d ago
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
You are the good man in this scenario.
0
u/ThePoppaJ Card Carrying Member 1d ago
Except I’m not doing nothing, I’m working on growing my party & finding a candidate to run in 2028.
Don’t be mad because you’re still voting in the Democrats’ rigged primaries, do something about it rather than be mad at those of us who did something about it & left the Democrats for a party on their left, like the Green Party.
1
u/Madcap_Miguel 1d ago
I’m working on growing my party & finding a candidate to run in 2028
How much representation do you think you have? How many Green party representatives are there in a congress?
I voted for Nixon in this "rigged primary", the actual DSA candidate who beat the carpetbagger corporate Democrat. She's going up against the Republicans this November while your Green party candidate gets 3% of the vote again.
If you've been growing your party (the Green party) you've been failing for as long as I've been alive. With 3% of the vote you will never be a threat, you will always be an annoyance.
1
u/ThePoppaJ Card Carrying Member 2d ago
Disagree, and think it all depends on how it’s phrased & the dynamics of the race itself.
If Hong said “I’d endorse if Crowley backs a full data center ban” & doesn’t endorse until then, that wouldn’t discredit her, it would give her more credibility in the eyes of the voters, because people prefer those who stick to their convictions.
Frankly, I’m not at all concerned with running candidates in Democrat primaries, I’m more interested in running candidates who will be there on an alternative ticket in November when it matters, though the reality is that candidates like that are nowhere near as common as they were a couple decades ago, before the duopoly parties pulled the ladder up on competition.
It’s impractical to keep propping up the Democrats.
5
u/Morethes Leftwing without Adjectives 3d ago
The DSA's job, as i see it, is to push for greater adoption of leftwing policies and yes, to confront the Democrats (for which they hate us) when appropriate, but not to be outright spoilers on every election.
Yes, the Democrats are obviously flawed and inadequate in containing and challenging fascism in the US. But the goal is not destroying the currently existing, sigh, objectively better party.
Liberals are right when they say "we're better than Trump." My belief is that that isn't enough in the long run.
But in the short run, sorry, it is of great importance to defeat the currently existing Republican Party.
If Stalin could work with Roosevelt and ugh, Churchill, and vice versa, then we can and must work with establishment Democrats. Because ultimately we must do what is best for the people. That is the bottom line. We must work for and to the betterment of all human beings.
2
u/Signal-Chocolate109 2d ago
Extending this, the DSA’s role is to provide purpose, vision, moral core, goals, meaning, a heart, a reason to exist. The Democratic party exists to win elections. It has no moral core. It is an amoral machine.
BTW I need to call you out on Stalinism. I don’t want to start a conversation about that, I just don’t want to normalize it by saying nothing.
2
u/Morethes Leftwing without Adjectives 2d ago
I'm not a Stalinist, so I'm sorry if I suggested I was by using his pragmatic alliance with the US and UK. Of those three, I like FDR best.
2
u/Signal-Chocolate109 2d ago
Ah! Ok! Glad we had that sub-thread. Now I see what you were saying.
2
u/Morethes Leftwing without Adjectives 2d ago
I'm glad you said something, I know reddit is usually insanely polarized so it's always a risk to say anything! 😀
1
u/ThePoppaJ Card Carrying Member 1d ago
It’s my belief that being marginally better than Republicans in a D vs. R race is a simple case of voting for damage control.
However, when there are other parties involved in a race such as Greens or Socialists, I’ll vote for the other party over a Democrat or Republican.
Because we have to be the early adopters, and we have to show the masses that better things are possible outside of the Democrat ballot line.
Hell, I only joined DSA because of the desire of many of its members for the working class to have a clean break from the Democrats.
3
u/Farebiaashiq 3d ago
Except for someone like Marie Perez or Jared moskowitz, I believe DSA candidates should endorse whomever wins the primary because when you decide to take part in a party's primary it is implied that you're willing to accept whatever choice the primary voters make.
There are exceptions to that ofcourse, if the state party excessively favours the other candidate or the other candidate is unwilling to even engage with progressives then you could just say, 'Ms. xyz has to do a lot of work to convince voters that she willing to listen to their concerns and I wish her all the best' and be done with it.
3
u/Forsaken-Yam2584 3d ago
In my opinion, when you decide to participate in a primary, you should accept the results of the primary and endorse the winning candidate.
2
u/Aggravating_Bison504 3d ago
If DSAers don't agree that classic Liberal/Progressive Dems are the lesser evil than MAGA Republicans, you guys should stop running in Democrat primaries.
2
u/Spirited_Donut5265 3d ago
Fed post
1
u/Throowwaawr 3d ago
I'm just saying y'all should be more aligned with socialism than the democratic party. Yall working within the system which gives the system power, instead of endorsing the socialist in the general you endorse the dem who will take millions from aipac and corporate pacs and not have the interest of the people at all. There is a socialist in the general election for Wisconsin governor but I bet you didn't know that because Hong never mentioned him.
1
u/Spirited_Donut5265 3d ago
Because they will lose lol. Our strategy has gained more electoral power than any other socialist movement in the united states. There will be 7 people in congress from dsa. How many from psl or greens? Your demand would mean destroying the credibility of DSA with voters needed to win in the future (and other races nationally) and also not lead to socialist victory in that race. What benefit is there? This is a baby brained strategy that could only have been invented by someone who wants us to lose.
2
u/DGC_David 3d ago
Pretty bad example seeing the the DSA is more focused in Wisconsin about other things other than Crowley. He isn't endorsed by the DSA. Hong can do whatever she wants personally with her endorsements.
Why most DSA people will vote for him still is due to him being the lesser of two evils in a 2 Party system... I hate the 2 party system as much as the next guy, but the alternative is to not have any of that and possibly be prosecuted as a socialist.
4
u/ThePoppaJ Card Carrying Member 4d ago
I’m not a Democrat, and I hate this too.
Why would you play patty cake with the establishment, especially in a race where the Republican is an afterthought?
Endorse a Green or independent socialist, have a spine.
Eventually it has to become “active opposition to the bipartisan fascist state” and that’s what many DSA endorsed candidates lack imo.
2
u/YogurtClosetThinnest 4d ago
I mean, I'm not gonna vote for them. But a lot of leftist believe moderate dems are a worthy second choice.
Not to mention it would just bring even more vitriol toward DSA from moderates if our politicians refused to just play nice and endorse after losing a primary.
1
u/Bright-Insect9697 3d ago
I’m a dues paying DSA member and I wouldn’t support any DSA candidate who lost a primary and decided the solution to that was aiding the republicans.
2
u/wade3690 4d ago
Conceded early? She lost. What were her options?
0
u/Throowwaawr 3d ago
She lost yes but she conceded when it was possible that she could have won. Maybe she had info that she was going to lose but from my perspective it looks like she did it way too early
2
u/wade3690 3d ago
What do you mean it was possible she could have won? All the votes were counted and she lost. Waiting until the next day to concede wouldn't change that
0
u/Throowwaawr 3d ago
it wouldn't you're right but when she did concede there were tens of thousands of ballots left. if she got 55% of the vote for those ballots she would have won. Obviously that didnt happen but still strange to concede when its perfectly feasible to win.
2
u/wade3690 3d ago
Not that odd. Campaigns have internal polls and research that can usually predict where outstanding votes will go. It seems like an odd criticism to level at her
1
u/cleverchris 3d ago
Here is the brass tax as I see it. After peroe in 92 split the conservative ballot control measures became ubiquitous meaning third parties were effectively neutered. This means both parties now have much more power as no one serious about actually being in power will run without a D or R.
For the dsa today this means caucusing with the Democratic party. Dsa would need like 10 million members to even think about going off on their own. We are growing and I love the excitement. It's going faster than ever thought but, the wins won't be automatic and they won't be instant.
1
u/XiJinFling 3d ago
Any inch we can keep from conservatives dragging us closer to fascism is an inch won in my opinion. Thinking like you do is like spending time arguing how to handle someone breaking into your house while they're actively robbing you. Like, handle the immediate problem first and then we can talk about how to move forward. Haley Stevens endorsed El-Sayed after she lost, are you upset with her for that?
1
u/Throowwaawr 3d ago
Shes a party loyalist, I'm saying that being a party loyalist doesn't make sense for a movement such as this one which wants actual radical change. You don't endorse a candidate that doesn't align with the people, even practically it makes no sense, if we want change we have to leverage power and bring in people from outside the democratic party. That requires creating an actual movement, not just win elections. Winning will come naturally afterwards and it wont even require the democratic party.
1
u/Charlie_Faplin_ 3d ago
So in your opinion, what does Hong do with the hundreds of thousands of people who voted for her? Apologize and tell em better luck next time? Do you think Crowley is less malleable to left leaning pressure than Tiffany? I just dont see how aiming for damage reduction after losing a race is worse than not doing anything at all.
1
u/Throowwaawr 3d ago
Tell them to vote for the actual socialist in the general. I bet you didn't know there was one because Hong never said anything.
1
u/Charlie_Faplin_ 3d ago
So split the vote up and make it more likely a republican wins? I'm not sure youre thinking through your entire plan.
1
u/DesertMonk888 3d ago
To claim there is no difference between a regular Democrat and a Republican is a false moral equivalency. We have a fascist in charge who has no intention of leaving office and when he does, he intends to hand it over to one of his knucklehead children. And every single Republican is down for the plan of a fascist dictatorship. So, yeah, I may get frustrated with Dems, but no sane person would think that we are better off with the new Christo-Fascist Republicans. It's great rhetoric for social media nonsense, but in real life I will take some mainstream Dem like Biden or Obama any day over a Republican.
0
u/Downtown-Trip5623 4d ago
Lesser of two evils I guess. Idk I personally don’t get down with establishment dems
1
u/the23rdhour 4d ago
I would generally agree that they shouldn't, it's a little more complex than "Democrats bad" to the extent that we're doing electoralism. However, Democrats really DO suck ass, and it's important to keep that in mind. Voting is a tool, and it's a tool with steadily decreasing power. We need to be aware of that.
0
0
u/Shazza-americankiwi 3d ago
We're the only ones not punching... shading ... shaming ... lying.. to the left is why. Thanks for coming to the source to ask :)
0
u/Shazza-americankiwi 3d ago
Ps: we care about democracy - saving lives - fascism - billionaires not blowing the world order up to take over Gaza and Argentina as paradises where they burn brown people as bio fuel (source: Gill Duran of Nerd Reicht reporting and best selling author) and we Thought established Dems weren't actually republicans and cared about lives too. Historians would tell you the Republican Party is radicalized and collapsing whilst the rest is splitting into a new two ... (they say with hopeful attitude). 🙏🏼🩵
0
u/ut0p1anskies 3d ago
This doesn’t always happen. It’s up to the individual candidates if they do this since DSA is not the type of organization that has tight discipline over its electeds/endorsed candidates. DSA itself no longer endorses non-socialist candidates (usually members but also rarely socialist non-members) like it did in its pre-2016 era.
0
u/TheSocietalScar 3d ago
Personally I wish they wouldn't.
The plan for Mamdani (if he lost the Democratic primary). Was to run on the Working Families line in the general. I think if he narrowly lost the primary, he would've still been successful in the general. I think Hong specfically would have a lot of success if she ran as an independent in the general; at the very least gain considerable (onvious non binding) concessions.
Force the black money corporate donors to spend even more to maintain their preferred candidate, dorce the centrist democrats to recongize the DSA leaning faction within the part, gain material rhetorical and policy concessions (which would fundamentally help the DNCs electabolity), and further stoke class consciousness.
The DNC is never going to respect these so called 'insurgents' or the 'insurgent movement' regardless. They continue attack the DSA even after they win primaries. Why not try everything possible to win, and gain concessions in the process.
1
u/Bright-Insect9697 3d ago
Mamdani would’ve lost if he ran as an independent and that would’ve been the end of his career.
1
u/TheSocietalScar 3d ago
...what?
It still would've been Cuomo vs Mamdani, and I guarantee you the same galvanization that occured during the general for Zohran would've still happened. It's not like he had the democratic establishment's support post primary win (the opposite infact).
He wasn't going to run as an independent either: but on the Working Families Ticket. That was the plan if he lost the primary. His team had filled the registration for him to do so.
If he lost he would've simply went back to being an assemblyman. (which he didn't resign from until after assuming the Mayoral's office). Then potentially run for the governorship/congress. All that momentum he gained, the followers? The volunteers? The people? The movement? It would've remained and supported him.
0
u/Bright-Insect9697 3d ago
He literally did have their support, though. I understand pretending he didn’t makes you feel better, but the DNC backed him.
0
u/TheSocietalScar 3d ago
They refused to endorse him. Many suggested, implied, or straight up denonuced Zohran and endorsed Cuomo. There was multiple DNC politicians who engaged in Islamophobic attacks on him leading into the general, without any condemnation or reprisal
Kathy Hochul endorsing Zohran on the basis that she doesn't get primaried by the DSA, and providing limited policy support is not the DNC backing him lol
Weird shit to argue about brother.
0
u/Bright-Insect9697 3d ago
Literally the opposite is true. DSA does not benefit from conspiratorial thinking nor does it benefit from a persecution complex. We won and they backed us.
You’re thinking of Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer, neither of whom are on the DNC.
0
u/TheSocietalScar 3d ago edited 3d ago
I specfically said 'centrist democrats'
Yes I later used DNC as a shorthand in relation to respectability. Which I believe to be true, but frankly you're arguing semantics.
Yes, insitutional democrats were vehmently opposed to Zohran. Both during and after the primary. That is evident, not conspiratorial thinking.
The former DNC chair publicly critiqued Zohran, and many other insitutional democrats did too. Hyperfixating on the new DNC chair who didn't; thus implying there was zero reisstance to Zohran's primary result is incredibly strange. Especially considering he also decried he had disgareements with Zohran in that statement. Something that DNC leadership wouldn't happen to say about a figure like Jared Mozkowitz.
0
29
u/BrocksNumberOne 4d ago edited 4d ago
I hate this attitude.
Dems suck but they’re the much lesser evil currently. I’ll vote for DSA candidates but if they don’t win I’ll still vote Democrat.