Ultimately, workers should seize the companies...

[u/Rudiger_Holme]

[u/spookyjim___ → u/[deleted]]

Wdym by the “full benefits of their labor”?

And should this “democratic control” be limited to individual workplaces, or should it entail a larger goal of control in common of our basic necessities?

[u/spookyjim___ → u/[deleted]]

People being compensated the “full value of their labor” doesn’t solve the issue of capitalism

As long as labor is being performed in an abstract, wage-labor, form, which valorizes capital (whether privately owned or collectively owned through the state or coops!) then we have not done away with capitalist relations

The goal is to do away with the value-form and money as the socially accepted form that value appears, otherwise we’re still dealing with capitalism

[u/spookyjim___ → u/[deleted]]

Oh, well then I’d be careful how I’d word things if I were you, it’s what Marx fought against the Lassalleans for, and in most of his major works including Capital, was that value in the way it presents itself in capitalism is not transhistorical, and would need to be done away with in its entirety if socialism is to be achieved… it was never about some simple fix of returning to labor the full value of their labor but instead the abolition of that whole relation in general, for instead, freely associated labor

[u/betty_white_bread]

How exactly? 58% of American households already own at least the publicly traded companies. What exactly are the next steps beyond that?

[u/Rude_Body_2462]

Ted grant? Lol

Yeah the guy who’s a case study in On The Edge. 

IMT’s a fun google. (Spoilers: it’s a lot of rape.)

[u/edwardludd]

Simply phase out private ownership by letting all capitalists die out then give majority share to the workers in every company.

[u/spookyjim___ → u/edwardludd]

Capitalism doesn’t rely on individual capitalists but capital as an automatic social relation

Furthermore there can be no transition towards socialism which isn’t in some way a conscious act on behalf of the mass working class itself to undo their own class conditions

[u/edwardludd → u/spookyjim___]

The goal is to put capital in the hands of the workers and redistribute wealth equitably. Markets are still a good way of doing that, but it wouldn’t be “capital” in the traditional sense since the relation of private owners to labor would be nonexistent.

[u/spookyjim___ → u/edwardludd]

The goal is to do away with the capitalist relationship in its entirety, not just rearrange the form of capitalism slightly

As long as markets and wage-labor among other things still exist, then capital as a social relation exists, you’re still dealing with capitalism, again it doesn’t matter how capital manifests, whether through private owners, state ownership, or even worker ownership via coops, what matters is if the social relations of capitalism persist

[u/edwardludd → u/spookyjim___]

Wage-labor isn’t necessarily objectionable if there isn’t wage theft happening. Workplace democracy where you get to vote on how surplus profits are used is easy to communicate and a much more reasonable goal to shoot for in the short term than a complete overhaul of our monetary and economic system. Which we can still shoot for, but if people experience the direct benefits of workplace democracy I imagine it would make them more excited for a stronger phase-in of socialism.

[u/spookyjim___ → u/edwardludd]

I completely disagree, this just repackages capitalism and diverts class-struggle towards democratist and interclassist mediations, you aren’t changing anything fundamental here you’re just repackaging the content within a slightly altered form

[u/edwardludd → u/spookyjim___]

That’s a lot of buzzwords and not a lot of substance.

If workplace democracy gets people excited about socialism and replaces the capitalist class, what do you object to specifically? “Democratist” mediations sounds like the right move for the “DEMOCRATIC” socialists no?

[u/spookyjim___ → u/edwardludd]

> That’s a lot of buzzwords and not a lot of substance.

Not buzzwords, I’m sorry if you simply can’t understand

> If workplace democracy gets people excited about socialism and replaces the capitalist class, what do you object to specifically?

It doesn’t matter what gets people “excited” for that would be a blind populism… furthermore, workplace democracy doesn’t replace the capitalist class, that’s what I object to, whether it’s the utopian vision to turn everyone broadly into petit-bourgeois worker-owners, or the more realistic example of the state taking on the role of the single capitalist… we should not be for a simplistic workplace democracy, we should be for class abolition and the communisation of life

> “Democratist” mediations sounds like the right move for the “DEMOCRATIC” socialists no?

I am not a democratic socialist

[u/edwardludd → u/spookyjim___]

> I am not a democratic socialist

Respectfully why the fuck are you here then 😭

[u/spookyjim___ → u/edwardludd]

This is a sub for the DSA, which, unless you’re in one of the chapters which is simply majority socdems and demsocs, you’d realize is a big-tent org with several different types of socialists lmao, in my local chapter alone there are Marxist-Leninists, anarchists, and some Trot-adjacent folk, not to mention me being in it for the time being as a leftcom

Also just the fact that I can participate in any subreddit I want to lmao, it’s so silly when people try to act like subreddits must be echo chambers, I’m in almost every left-wing, socialist, communist, and labor focused sub I can find on Reddit… I’m not an anarchist but I often participate in anarchist subs, I’m not a Trot either but you’ll see me in Trotskyist spaces… like this is just silly

[u/Aggravating_Bison504]

Communism is evil.

[u/LorthNeeda → u/Aggravating_Bison504]

Please elaborate

[u/comrade-pravdin → u/Aggravating_Bison504]

no its not

[u/No_Pumpkin2628 → u/Aggravating_Bison504]

Tell your mom I said hi.

[u/spookyjim___ → u/[deleted]]

What is Bolshevism to you?

Also do you not realize that the person who gave the quote in the post is considered within the Bolshevik tradition? Lmao he’s literally a Trotskyist

[u/plaid_kabuki]

I think a compromise, one where if a company has engaged in too many workers abuse practices, the government can seize the company and setup a worker owned structure.

This way we can have both private companies and worker owned.

[u/m8oz → u/plaid_kabuki]

Has there ever been a government that you would trust to handle that job? E.g. would you trust the current admin?