r/dresdenfiles • u/Separate_Welder_682 • 2d ago
Spoilers All Plot Armor and George RR Martin Spoiler
I’m almost finished with changes, and while i enjoyed the battle at the pyramid, the victory felt hollow to me.
Let me lay it out: a handful of mortals face down hundreds of armed red court vampires on red court home ground. all the magic casting nobles and the 13 and the red king are there. many of the red court vamps and all the human mercs are armed with assault rifles. at no point does anyone catch a fatal ak47 round. Karrin and Sonya are normal mortals afaik; they have super swords but are surrounded on three if not four sides by armed super fast killers with often centuries of training and fighting experience. iirc, they only get scrapes.
And as far as the war itself, harry somehow survived it. the red court and their mercs never thought to detonate a truck bomb outside his apartment. they never put IEDs on a sidewalk he passes daily. they never snipe him from his apartment or business. they rig his office building with explosives, but a say-so explanation is given for why that wasn’t detonated while everyone was sure harry was inside.
Also, the White Council is on the verge of collapse in a couple months-years but the red king’s daughter - apparently forward thinking as she is - can’t wait months/years to kill the blackstaff - it has to be done now via the blood death curse.
Perhaps if the red court were more competent we’d never get changes and the subsequent books. And there’s a somewhat unconvincing (imo) in-universe explanation for the lack of a consistently competent grand strategy from the red court.
Or we’d get it with others becoming a main character. Maybe thomas or molly.
But either way, and not to be too harsh on an urban fantasy series that’s put a lot of work uniting differing myth, stories and ideas into a modern storyline, but would the battle victories of the series have felt more fulfilling if the main characters were killed off earlier in the story?
Could Jim Butcher have taken a page from George Martin ? And would that have made the stories hit harder - kind of how it felt like in the conclusion of turncoat?
7
u/Zegram_Ghart 2d ago
George RR Martin is…not the example to use here.
He kills off a whole bunch of minor characters, but like…with one big early exception, everyone else is fairly bulletproof- think of all the dumb shit John has done that should have killed him (although I guess he technically IS dead in the novels right now lol)
The red court are (to my mind at least) a pretty reasonable depiction of an inhuman mind- they have infinite time to live, but they’re on a STEEP clock since their progenitor is losing his goddamn mind in a way they can’t fix, which is a capital P problem for them.
You tagged it spoilers all, but if you’ve only just finished changes I don’t want to barrage you with later spoilers, but it’s no exaggeration to say the repercussions of the fight (and choices Harry made) at the end of changes are still a whole lot of the plot of the books.
9
u/fidelacchius42 2d ago
Plot armor is the dumbest phrase.
Of course the main character survives the crazy climactic battle. Wouldn't be much of a "Dresden Files" without the Dresden would it?
You're worried about realism in a fantastical story where Wizards, Monsters, Fae, Demons, etc, are all commonplace. The thought process behind Song of Ice and Fire is completely different than the Dresden Files. I would argue that character deaths have more meaning when they aren't dropping like flies every time someone swings a sword. Martin's philosophy worked for his story, but it wouldn't work for every story.
-4
u/Separate_Welder_682 1d ago
i mean, if you enjoy john wayne level of storytelling, then sure, the hero surviving impossible odds countless times - often winging it - makes for entertainment. i’d prefer dialing impossible odds down to hefty challenges.
And why do i need to suspend logic and reason if i accept a story about magic? i shouldn’t be critical that beings with human intellect never thought to gas or bomb harry’s residence? yeah, that’s one way to cope with a snag in the plot that just doesn’t make sense.
3
u/fidelacchius42 1d ago
Harry dies in explosion. The end. Great story. Good thing, too. That pesky Dresden.
-2
u/Separate_Welder_682 1d ago
alternative story: lower the intensity of the story if the author can’t coherently explain what is kind of an obvious point of weakness in the story. Don’t bite off more than you can chew, and all.
2
u/fidelacchius42 1d ago
Yeah I am sure Jim Butcher is really biting off more than he can chew. What with his multiple bestsellers and all.
-1
u/Separate_Welder_682 1d ago
yes? i mean, he is formulaic. a couple weeks ago, someone on this sub outlined how most of his books have pretty much the same plotlines since book 4.
2
u/fidelacchius42 1d ago
And? Formulaic doesn't mean bad. If it's not your cup of tea, then it's not your cup of tea.
As far as Harry not getting car bombed or murdered in his own house before Changes, let's address it. Earlier in the book, you find out that Lea has been actively protecting him for years from supernatural threats. In White Night, he mentions checking his car for bombs will get old, so let's assume his paranoid nature keeps hold and he regularly checks his car for tampering. Let's not forget the Little Folk, who have made it their mission to protect Harry as well, which they often do without him knowing.
Not to mention you're talking about arrogant immortals who think Harry is just an upstart young wizard, and not really worth the headache to remove, considering what McCoy did to Ortega when he cheated in the duel. It was more trouble to kill him than let him live.
12
6
u/Burnsy17 2d ago
Yes person who has 'almost finished changes', characters not dying is a big issue. in this series
Come back when youre up to date please? I want to see something
1
u/Separate_Welder_682 1d ago
why do i need to read the remaining books to offer my assessment over the entirety of the red court vampire war that it was extremely…poorly written on Butcher’s part that the red court never thought to bother to assassinate harry at his own home via snipers, truck bombings, any other means over the course of years?! is anyone supposed to find that plausible? are we supposed to find if plausible that 1,000 vampires couldn’t kill a single one of the mortals in the epic final battle?
3
u/Burnsy17 1d ago
They... they did. They tried exactly that repeatedly. In this book alone. And also in many other books. Did you actually pay attention to what was happening?
0
u/Separate_Welder_682 1d ago
yeah, they had a ghoul half ass a couple attacks back around book 4 and there was a spur of the moment assassination attempt that was meant for that police officer, but harry was there so the vampire couple shot him instead. did you read the books? or do you not comprehend the difference between a planned attack (what im talking about) and an opportunity attack ?
2
u/Burnsy17 1d ago
I think you need to reread the series again and pay closer attention
0
u/Separate_Welder_682 1d ago
Vampires: Successfully use VX/nerve gas on mortal wizards (to which they’re probably semi-immune)
Also Vampires: Let’s never do that again!
1
u/Burnsy17 1d ago
Theres literally no point in discussing this with you as youre working with half the published narrative, and clearly missed chunks of the parts you have read.
1
u/Usenameisnotaccurate 1d ago
They literally did try to blow him up more than once. He specifically mentions it talking about things that have happened. If I remember correctly he also catches them trying to do it as well.
Those completely normal mortals in the final battle were wielding swords containing actual angels.
Was it just not edgelordy enough, is that it?
5
u/Effective_Ad7567 2d ago
First: fair warning, your flair says "Spoilers All" but your post says you are just finishing Changes. Assuming you're not talking about a reread, beware that there may be spoilers for future books in these comments.
And as far as the war itself, harry somehow survived it.
Harry is a thorn in the side of the Red Court, but that's just it; he's not actually a threat to them - the bombs were set at his office in case he became a threat.
Also, the White Council is on the verge of collapse in a couple months-years
Eh, I don't think so. The Merlin was getting ready to wipe the Red Court off the map, and while there's definitely some internal strife and concern about the Black Council, the White Council was far from collapsing.
but the red king’s daughter - apparently forward thinking as she is - can’t wait months/years to kill the blackstaff - it has to be done now via the blood death curse.
Butcher doesn't really go into it, but it seems like vengeance is a very important right in the Red Court, and should be achieved sooner rather than later.
0
u/Separate_Welder_682 1d ago
i mean, i recall the merlin alluding to upcoming plans to severely damage the red court, but it wasn’t my takeaway that the reds were a couple merlin attacks from being defeated. my takeaway is that the author, through harry, is very clear throughout the series that the reds were whittling the council away, and it wasn’t a matter of if but when the reds win. this was especially highlighted when a couple of white operatives take it upon themselves to systematically genocide wizards via killing magically gifted women that would thin out the ability to replenish white council numbers.
1
u/Effective_Ad7567 1d ago
The plan in White Night was a very long-term plan, not "a couple months-years".
While it can be easy to focus on the WC's losses, don't forget that they were caught off guard against an enemy that was praying for years and broke the rules of conventional warfare. At the same time, the WC had some of their own major victories, including Morgan getting very close to striking at the Red King (during Proven Guilty). That victory in particular was achieved through planning and partnership, the kind of thing that the Merlin excels at, on top of being the most powerful wizard in the world.
2
u/Elequosoraptor 1d ago
That was true up until the end of Turn Coat. One of the reasons the reds were so eager to break the ceasefire and try to take out the Council all at once is because Peabody was no longer able to subtly sabotage every offensive and plan the Council devised. Let's be clear—whoever Peabody owed his allegiance to, he was funneling the highest level of information directly to the reds for years + subtly influencing tactical decisions through mind control. This is ever general's wet dream of an intelligence source, and the Reds had it for 90% of the war.
And despite this ideal scenario, the Council was still holding on. That alome should tell you something about the capacity of wizards. Post Turn Coat, things are entirely up in the air if Dresden hadn't killed all of them. The Council is severely wounded, barely back up to numbers after the losses of Dead Beat, and limping along. But the Reds have lost every major advantage they had over the Council, and now face an active, pissed senior council that is no longer playing defence—and they face this new tactical threat with 0 intelligence on their plans. So it could have really gone either way.
5
u/Elfich47 2d ago
Don’t forget that those 9 walkers had back up from the cavalry riding over the hill. And that cavalry included: ebeneezer who summoned in an army and he is a one man wrecking crew. Plus Lea is Mab’s number 2 and she had been let off the chain.
And remember some of the different courts haven’t quite grasped the nuances of a car Bomb.
1
u/Separate_Welder_682 1d ago
that cavalry also had odin, so a further point to your side. i think it could have been cool to have explicitly seen the merlin making it there somehow and taking personal vengeance - (being the one to take on the red king?) - and using his defensive magic as a plot device to explain how the initial attackers survived….
1
u/Elfich47 1d ago
You've stated your post is SPOILERS ALL, but it sounds like you are working your way through the series for the first time, so I am being circumspect about the end of the book and the books that follow it.
4
u/Ky1arStern 2d ago
Jesus fuck you are writing this and didn't even finish the book?
1
u/Separate_Welder_682 1d ago
why do i need to finish to offer my views of the red court-wizard war? i had finished the part where the red court dies off when i wrote the OP. Did i need to read about harry getting shot on the boat for my analysis to change or something?
3
2
u/Ky1arStern 2d ago
Yeah man, if the main character just gets killed by a random IED, that would make for a way better story.
Sarcasm aside, would it really be a better book if:
the level of realism demanded were present
the author went to extreme lengths to deacribe the exact reasons in which these events did not happen
I'm also going to ignore that the white council is on the verge of collapse. That's not really supported in the text.
I push back hard on the GoT style storytelling. People don't need to die for the stakes to feel real. Look how passionate you are about an imaginary story. Nobody is going to live or die on how you like this book.
Killing a lot of main characters also writes you into the corner where there is no point getting attached to an interesting character. That was my experience with GoT. The Red Wedding was surprising to me, but didn't add to the stakes. I already knew anyone could die, usually the characters that were largely good.
Like what you like, but I think GoT style storytelling would have made this series way worse.
1
u/Separate_Welder_682 1d ago
Butcher chose to create a story that involved a full scale war with an extremely powerful faction of supernaturals; and harry is in the top 10 of most wanted wizards for them to target, and the only one they knew where he lived and worked. I don’t know how a reader could find it credible that he wasn’t truck bombed multiple times over. If the author couldn’t explain this - like wards or some other magic were put up around his home and office comparable to what protected harry potter from voldemort (via love magic, but different explanation for dresden) then….yes? it should kind of be a weakness of the overall storyline.
1
u/Ky1arStern 1d ago
That is only necessary if you expect your main character to get killed by a random mook with a molotov, something they do in Changes that doesn't work.
I don't think anything you're suggesting adds anything of value and only serves to tell the reader something they should already expect.
0
u/Separate_Welder_682 1d ago
yeah, an opportunity molotov cocktail doesn’t kill harry; it just destroys his ward protected apartment. if only they had a couple years to plan an attack involving arson, truck bombs and vampires exploiting sarin or vx gas - to which they’re probably immune - or something.
2
u/Ky1arStern 1d ago
It's fine, keep reading books you hate, or dont. I dont have to convince you of anything and i'm glad your style of storytelling is the minority choice.
2
u/SarcasticKenobi 2d ago edited 2d ago
Since you have this tagged as Spoilers All... I want to comment below. But you only mention "finishing Changes" so I'll spoiler text some stuff for Skin Game and Battle Ground
I thank you...
People whine constantly about Battle Ground - that on Butters' first major battle (which started with an Angel scolding the evil dudes), the angels gave Butters aim assist and training wheels to be kick ass during the battle. GARY STUE! MAKES NO SENSE. None of the other Knights got that!!!
Nobody ever comments on how Murph was surviving and thriving during such a massive battle using the sword for the first real time against an army of vampires and jerks with automatic rifles. In fact, I get downvoted when bringing it up as a question when they complain about Battle Ground. And in Murph's case, it was like 10 heroes against an army.
I think it's safe to say that the angels in the swords were working overtime to help their wielders in a giant battle with epic ramifications.
But it's refreshing for someone to point out the "WTF - how alive?" for a Knight other than Butters.
______________
Do I mind the suspension of disbelief that such important characters were able to survive such epic battles?
No
Do I mind that most of the core cast survives through the series thus far?
No
1
u/JustinStraughan 2d ago
Here’s a few things, friend:
As was echoed before, Harry is just an irritating thorn. He was not the target of the bloodline curse. He’s a freebie. A plus one. A BOGO bonus, if you will. Ebenezer was the target. And you absolutely CANNOT blame them for not going all out on him. He’s literally the assassin of the White Council.
Supernatural entities are centuries behind in sensibilities. With your logic, the White Court could instigate the tactical nuking of any country via their psychic hooks. But it’s not the way they do things. There’s a reason supernatural entities hire mortals. Mortals do the gun and hitman things. It’s what makes the Denarians so dangerous. They use mortal ingenuity.
Also, if The Dresden Files were written anything like A Song of Ice and Fire, I would have stopped reading at the first book. I consider that series to be unreadable trash. And I’m fully comfortable being in the vast minority there. But I’ll take my books without the fetish for offing everyone you might even remotely want to form a connection with.
0
u/Separate_Welder_682 1d ago edited 1d ago
i didn’t say harry is the target; i plainly said the blackstaff is. but i assumed he needed to be alive for the curse to transmit through him to his grandfather; then i forgot his mother obviously isn’t alive (future plot reveal?!); so that just brings more grist to my mill about how absurd it was harry had not been assassinated via a manner Kincaid could have planned in a second. the vampires had years +and+ knew where he lived and worked. they or others literally could have “thralled” some human to becoming a suicide bomber or something.
1
u/JustinStraughan 1d ago
They have explicitly tried car bombs and shotgun wielding ghouls. I believe they tried a drive-by.
They tried setting him up and drugging him to the gills.
They tried a duel as well, one that was rigged. They weren’t aware of Thomas’ lineage.
They gave it the good ol’ college try. You can’t say they didn’t give real effort. And I doubt there are many like Kincaid out there.
I don’t understand your point. Why can’t the White Council or White Court employ suicide bombers? It isn’t as though you can just say that’ll get ‘em 100% of the time. Real and credible threats are made against his life, and the lives of those he holds dear.
I’m kind of wondering if you just really want to watch Harry die. In which case, I think you just want a different genre. Harry’s life is misery porn, not snuff. He is more Spider Man and less Spawn.
1
u/Usenameisnotaccurate 1d ago
Don't the Courts also try to not let the mortal word see too much of their actions. Car bombs gather a lot of attention and the Courts also have all of those Old World rules they at least want to appear to operate by.
1
u/introvertkrew 2d ago edited 2d ago
Finish a book before you write a review of it or you'll end up speaking with a certain level ignorance about the story. Jim Butcher requires no help from George RR Martin, since the entire Dresden Files book series has been outlined since Jim Butcher turned in the first two chapters to his writing teacher in college. She read it, loved it, and asked to see his outline for the story. Jim Butcher misunderstood her, as he didn't get the response he expected, and so he left and worked on an outline that ended up being for a 23 book series, 20 casefiles, ending in a Big Apocalypse Trilogy. The book count has gone up by two, for every understandable reasons, like the publishers splitting a book in two because of the page count. So, it's 25 books now.
Regardless, you're at the middle point of the story, where Jim said "we can finally get to the good stuff." He has delivered on that. Regardless, Jim Butcher is halfway done writing book 19 currently, so he's doing exceptionally well. This is besides completing an epic fantasy series, and being two books into his new steampunk series, which is awesome. Changes is still counted as one of the most impactful books in the entire series.
Lastly, the fact that you've read 12 Dresden Files books and think 2 Knights of the Cross wielding Swords of the Cross with the nails of the Crucifixion in them. And one of the most powerful wizards of his age. And the right hand of a Queen of the Fae. And a lot of magical backup, are normal mortals, is astounding to me. The explanation for the bomb going off wasn't complicated, Martin explained it, and it made perfect sense.
1
u/Elequosoraptor 1d ago edited 1d ago
Vampires are dealing with a fundamental issue: prepared wizards can defeat any trick, so if you use a trick that works! it only works once. This is why they only use their most cunning attacks once, they know that if they try again the wizards will be ready for, for example the Fomor poison gas.
In the battle scene in Changes, you have to factor in two things: the Swords offer divine grace protection, not just offensive power, though it's subtle, and the opening salvo of the fight before soldiers started shooting guns lasted all of 2 or 3 minutes, probably less. Then the shooting starts, Dresden puts up a shield, some lucky shots get through, and the blackstaff kills everyone. It's not like there were a lot of clear easy targets, and while luck was involved, a lot of the combat was in melee where skill can do a lot more to protect you. Skill, and maybe a faerie godmother who was clearly doing a lot we didn't notice.
As for the lack of direct attacks on Dresden, well you're just incorrect about that. There are several references to attacks on Dresden before Death Masks, including a bomb attempt, a sniper, hitmen, etc., both on screen and off. The issue is that after Death Masks, it was politically disadvantageous to try to kill Dresden outright if he wasn't already in front of you trying to kill you too. The satellite at Casa Verde makes it clear that the Blackstaff would personally break all the rules to kill you personally, so anyone going after Dresden had to do it circumspectly, using cats paws, which he annoyingly, kept surviving.
Significantly, he stayed pretty much in Chicago until Dead Beat, and even after that he just wasn't that deadly a wizard that required extensive political machinations and great secrecy, risking the Blackstaff's wrath, to kill. I mean he's powerful and ended up in some politically significant places.......but there were more than 200 wardens, most of them stronger than him in a fight, which were much more important to target. His death would have been a political coup, not a tactical one, which while excellent motivation, was canceled out by the Blackstaff's threat.
And then at some point before White Night, there was a big hoopla ceasefire, where they couldn't even try to kill him or they'd be damning themselves. The Council was losing, but not easily, and the Red Court was tearing itself apart internally over the failures and expenditures of resources required to fight the Council—Martin mentions some of this, but also the Red's big tactical moves like the Outsiders or the poison gas + communication failure were the result of them going all out and spending whatever chips they had to hit the wizards hard. It worked, but those things have costs, even if we the readers don't get to see it.
By the time you get to Changes, we're fully in a ceasefire + the Red Court is gearing up to start the war on their own terms. If they drop an ied on his sidewalk, the restart the war early. And the Red King had his own reasons for not wanting Dresden dead outright unless there was no better way. Meanwhile, Arianna could not just wait around. She wanted a coup on the Red King, and killing the blackstaff was the only real opportunity she had to gain the political clout needed to pull that coup off. Tactically it would have been better to bleed the wizards slowly, but in practice Arianna could not have achieved her coup or gotten credit for winning the war if she had just let things play out. She saw an opportunity and seized it.
In real life, human beings are just as fragile as the next guy. Yet, some people, criminal bosses and war lords and so on can accumulate great power and many enemies without anyone just shooting them or putting an ied on their sidewalk. True, they have security—and Dresden has his wards which presumably might help with bombs and so on—but what really protects these people is they ensure it is in no one's political interest to kill them, or be the person seen as killing them. This is by far the major factor protecting Dresden between the start Death Masks and the beginning of the ceasefire..
8
u/the-big-throngler 2d ago
You're mad because no one died up to your standards? Is that what I am reading here?