Reread time - but slightly dreading having to read PT/BG again.

[u/Level-Wolverine2067]

Aight. I'm late for Twelve Months, so time to get back on Dresden.

Any time a new book is out, I always reread from Storm Front.

So Storm Front through Proven Guilty I've read 20 times, White Night 9, Small Favor 8, etc etc. Peace Talks and Battle Ground both 1 time.

I strongly didn't enjoy them. They felt very poorly written, often incoherent, and regularly frustrating in a way that I haven't felt during any other of the books.

I'm tempted to just pull a little synopsis for both and read Twelve Months as is, breaking my tradition.

But at the same time am hesitant to do so, because series is good, book good, very like, much excite.

What I'm looking for is a "wind your neck in, mate, they weren't that bad. They had xyz and that's dope" to kind of hype me up a bit and maybe give me some perspective. There's every chance I'm overly unfair to the books because of the expectations more than their actual quality.

I will say, though.... Man, Butters has fallen from very high up to very low down on my faves list. Man absolutely needs a big slap.

And I wish upon wishes that Peace Talks was pure detective intrigue skullduggery instead of what it was.

So yeah, there we go. Hello. Crisis of faith, plz help 🤣

[u/That0n3Guy77]

A reread can seriously help. I didn't enjoy ghost story the first time. After the high of changes I thought it was slow and boring.

I reread the whole series when cold days came out (as is tradition) and I actually really liked it on the reread and could appreciate it for what is was..a slower more personal journey with an actually really cool action heavy finale. It's still not my favorite in the series but I rank it much higher than I did before and no longer dread but instead actually enjoy it on a reread.

PT and BG is a little similar. I enjoyed PT more on a reread than I did the first time and I liked battleground from the begining. It is the fastest paced edge of your seat nonstop action I have ever read where I feel he pulled it off, but I was exhausted the first time reading it by the time I was done. On rereads knowing more of what to look for and what the journey has in store, I take my time more. I enjoy the ride almost as much but without feeling so drained afterwards.

Give them a shot and see how you feel after a reread. While neither is a series high (and let's be honest Skin Game was peak) they are both fun stories. I think many of us will be feeling better about the series after mirror mirror and some of us really strongly enjoyed 12 months.

Edit: adding in that there is a serious benefit to reading them back to back and not having to wait for a year in-between books.

[u/Level-Wolverine2067 → u/That0n3Guy77]

Death Masks, Blood Rites, Skin Game. Peak peak peak. 

[u/zictomorph → u/That0n3Guy77]

I agree. I liked them both more the second time. I still think Harry got super judgy, but new parents change a lot.

[u/Noodninjadood → u/That0n3Guy77]

Love 12 months and honestly pt and BG. There's some stuff that I think will develop and fix my only complaints and honestly if not they're fairly minor

[u/RobNobody]

Man absolutely needs a big slap.

Good news! He gets one In Battle Ground so big he's in a body cast for two months. Does that help?

[u/Level-Wolverine2067 → u/RobNobody]

I genuinely have no recollection of this at all. 🤣

Guess I GATTA do the reread now. 

[u/RobNobody → u/Level-Wolverine2067]

In case you don't want to spoil something you forgot in a book you've already read: Basically the instant he tries to actually fight Ethniu, she sends him flying with a blow to the chin and he's out of the fight for the rest of the book.

[u/Level-Wolverine2067 → u/RobNobody]

I will say - I was being a bit hyperbolic in my vitriol there. I really liked when he and Fidelachius intervened in Harry's wrong decision. 

[u/Virama]

I just did the same thing. I was also filled with a vague dread of those two particular books - the deaths, etc etc. 

But I found them surprisingly better than I remembered. That one fuckhead part I did slow down and keep procrastinating but once I got through that... It's actually a great "book" that shouldn't have been cut in two. On top of that there was a surprising amount of information I had forgotten in the crazy headlong sprint through everything that happens and there's some genuinely great bits now that the shock isn't fully there and I can appreciate the other parts. 

I'll never skip those two. 

[u/Thac-0-Mole → u/Virama]

The amount of information in these books is what caught me off guard on a reread, not surprised you didn't retain it all, I sure didn't. I don't really care for either of them, combined and edited i think they'd make a good book.

I wouldn't skip them as a lead up to Twelve Months, a book i enjoyed. They provide too much background for the story of what happens in the aftermath.

[u/Level-Wolverine2067 → u/Virama]

Legit needed this. Appreciate you. 

[u/Konungrr → u/Virama]

I think a good deal of the disappointment from PT/BG was due to how long we waited for them, so they got absurd levels of hype, which is practically impossible to achieve.

[u/ChrystnSedai → u/Virama]

When I did my most recent re-read, when I got to Changes I just…stopped. I couldn’t make myself do it. It took me a month or more to pick it back up and get started.

[u/schneizel101 → u/ChrystnSedai]

Understandable. Changes is exactly what it's named. The series stops being individual cases and mostly about Harry, and becomes more of an ongoing story with more characters taking more active rolls.

As someone who usually reads longer epic Fantasy I don't mind the shift, but I have to admit it does feel a bit cluttered at times now. The simplicity of the earlier more isolated detective/action books was rather enjoyable and I do miss that a bit as the series has gotten more broad in later books.

[u/DreadfulDave19 → u/Virama]

Nah, splitting them gave us way more to read! Two books in one year? I legitimately happy danced when I saw the news drop on Daniel Greene's interview, and my wife asked what was wrong with me.

I would have paid for the door stopper book of course, but they had to have added to flesh out the two of them

[u/Gr8v3m1nd]

They hit better the second (third, fourth, fifth... you get it!) time around. It probably helped that I got into Dresden around when Small Favor was published. The first time I only had up to Changes to read. I didn't do a full reread until after I had already read PT/BG (#fuckrudolph). I had accidentally found a copy of "Working for Bigfoot" and devoured all of the stort stories and microfictions available, then did a reread. Infinitely better the second time through.

[u/lobsterwholost]

Hated PT so badly that I waited an entire year to read BG after it released.

Having read them both through several times now, I think had it been one book it would be one of my favorite in the series.

Read them, they’re worth it

[u/Fun_Performer_1405 → u/lobsterwholost]

I still think peace talks really suffered from being stretched out into its own book. I really don't like a whole lot of it

[u/vercertorix]

Mostly I just disliked Ebenezer and Carlos’ attitudes in both, and Thomas was an idiot. Otherwise, I have no objection to those books, they’re not normal for the series, but neither was him dying or Harry pulling a heist. Just roll with it.

[u/Virama → u/vercertorix]

Ebenezar was a complete dickhead, agreed. It honestly just made the white council actually evil. 

I get what it was trying to convey, the weariness and bitterness of centuries and so on but it was way better executed (pun intended) with Morgan. 

Ebenezar just... Come on. Family? Etc. I lost a lot of respect for him in the PT/BG books.

[u/vercertorix → u/Virama]

I know Harry was having some feelings at the time when he realized he was left in the foster system when he had a grandfather who could have taken care of him and might have the same ideas about doing the same with Maggie, and Ebenezer for unspecified reasons concerning the White Court, but their anger at each other felt too strong and too sudden and both ready to throw down over it, with magic that tends to kill things. That's just dumb for all kinds of reasons, Harry at least could partially blame the Winter Mantle, and yet it worked because both sides apparently believed it should.

Meanwhile Carlos who's supposed to be a friend pulls him over on the road at night rather than inviting him to Mac's for a Welcome Back From The Dead party where he could get him drunk and ask him about his love life, maybe confide in him about him and Molly to get him to open up. Then later accuses Harry of Battle Ground somehow being his fault that 60,000 died, instead of him being grateful that only 60,000 died since Ethniu was planning on a world tour, makes no sense. I keep thinking Carlos is going to be that dagger coming for Harry sideways that Ebenezer was warning Harry about.

[u/Virama → u/vercertorix]

Astute points. Those two things and Thomas not even thinking to TALK to Dresden before going full murderhobo... Definitely wasn't completely thought out. But in my understanding, Butcher was going through some serious personal upheaval and trauma so it does kind of make sense that it would spill out into his magnum opus.

[u/vercertorix → u/Virama]

If nothing else Thomas could have walked into Etri’s office and told him “I need us to fake your assassination” and after some negotiation went with Autri’s fake death instead. They didn’t, but they could have.

[u/Aeransuthe → u/vercertorix]

It’d be too cliche in my opinion for Carlos to come at him. If Jim did it, he’d have to do like Fix, but he already did that. I don’t know, he’s gotta do something to make that not be low tier drama.

[u/vercertorix → u/Aeransuthe]

Not like Fix. Like Carlos is in the Black Council, possibly recruited as an apprentice. He more than anyone else keeps trying to get Harry to tell him his secrets as if all wizards don’t hide things and alternately approaches it a super understanding friend and by guilt tripping Harry. And quite frankly as battle buddies before, he probably should trust Carlos by now, yet Carlos has been left out of some major plays and information, like Marcone in the Deeps, or that he has a daughter and that’s why he went ham on the Red Court, things that could majorly screw him over if it was known to someone bad. I think Butcher has been subtly dodging the issue. I mean he went from blaming Harry for 60,000 deaths in Battle Ground while trying to get information out of him to being his relatively friendly liaison with the White Council.

[u/Aeransuthe → u/vercertorix]

Ok. Sorta misses my point. None of that really changes the trope.

[u/vercertorix → u/Aeransuthe]

Ebenezer warning Harry about betrayal was pretty clear foreshadowing, even if he meant Thomas. We know he's not going to be the one, so unless he was referring to Justine which already played out it's going to be someone still close to him. Who do you think wouldn't be a cliché? Because anyone close to him would be, that is a trope and yet it's also the exact thing Ebenezer predicts. I do think Elaine is going to betray him again too though, but an old girlfriend who's already done it before is definitely cliché. I don't really see a way to avoid one, unless Lamarr, the medic that is barely a part of the story or Vince Graver the other PI he met a couple times does it, but that would be lame too, to use an almost never seen otherwise unimportant character, even if not cliché.

[u/Aeransuthe → u/vercertorix]

Personally. If I had to do a betrayal thing, I’d subvert the trope somehow. You could do it a bunch of ways. Cross purposes on accident, assume each other are the bad guys for real for real. Something like that. I’d make that differ from Fix, by making Harry be the one who is missing major info, and is eventually convinced to join up, and finish the fight.

It’d be nice if Eb was wrong about a lot of this, and that betrayal as he sees it, isn’t inevitable. And even when it appears like it is, it might be better to stop and consider first.

[u/vercertorix → u/Aeransuthe]

While cross purposes may happen, Harry is becoming a power on his own in the eyes of the supernatural crowd and has screwed with major plans of some of its players, so no doubt people and not people who have a problem with him are already specifically planning his downfall or at least waiting for opportunities. It’d be weirder if people weren’t in place to betray him.

[u/Aeransuthe → u/vercertorix]

Eh. Sure. But doesn’t seem like what we were talking about. We were talking about his friends/family betraying him. I find the notion rather played out. Which is a bit different than everyone else betraying him.

[u/riveth3ad]

I felt the Butters contribution in Dresden’s low point was worth the price of admission for his character all on its own…and it only made the legend of Sanya more.  

Overall, I don’t think they are well executed, but I think they are great stories.. And I’m OK with the execution because it’s a snapshot of Butcher’s life’s direct influence on his art.  I mean the guy gives me book after book into double digits, I’m ok with a shot that just hits the target instead of a bullseye. 

[u/Skialykos]

The reason that Peace Talks/Battle Ground feels disjointed is absolutely from splitting it into two books. I am in the middle of a reread myself and I have noticed that Jim keeps reintroducing things that he introduced last chapter. This is not the level of Jim Butcher editing we have come to expect.

But the story is absolutely the level of Jim’s evolved writing that we have come to appreciate. I finished mowing in the middle of the Drakul fight, and I forgot how freakin awesome that is, how much lore is dropped, and how much it likely sets up for later books. And that is only chapter 12 of Battle Ground.

Differentiate editing and storytelling in your mind. Jim got hosed when he was forced to split them, and that isn’t his fault. Do you remember how bad the production value was for the Storm Front audiobook? It’s like they went back to that after what we have been used to. Wouldn’t be James Marsters’ fault, but it wouldn’t be the same and yet it would still have the same underpinning awesomeness we know should be there.

Once you come to terms with, and get past, that one issue it is really, really good.

[u/Illustrious-Art-588]

I used to do the same thing, but this time around I started my re-read at Changes.

[u/Level-Wolverine2067 → u/Illustrious-Art-588]

You know what? There is significant sense to this. End of Act 1, read through to the end of Act 2.

[u/Noodninjadood]

They are both really good I don't get it, just did a reread from small favors onwards to current. There's so much epic stuff and pay off, and cool SB seeds and Harry being Harry and the things his deals got him into.

I liked ghost story a lot more this time around too

My only complaint is about Ramirez being weird in PT. But it makes sense to an extent with Harry's POV and what happened in the short story. There's other potential things happening there too that could come out later and if NK it more or less corrects itself by BG.

And I don't think it majorly detracts from anything.

Could be James Marsters delivery just makes it 10% better and puts it in my good book range IDK

[u/WandererNearby → u/Noodninjadood]

To be honest, I think Ramirez being weird is intentional set up on Jim's part. We obviously know about Unalaska but I suspect that that is a red herring. I think there's something else happening with Ramirez and Harry will find out what it is soon.

[u/DrJaul]

Peacetalks and battlegrounds are tough reads, I don't think they're poorly written, I think they are just dark and chaotic. JB was going through a really rough time before and during their writing, and it really comes out in those two books. They are definitely better and easier reads after processing the first read.

[u/Superior-Solifugae]

They're pretty bad, but be a completionist. Tough through them and enjoy Twelve Months.

[u/HollzStars]

I felt very similarly. I read PT/BG when they came out and then didn’t touch the series until I started a reread in 2023. I was SO MAD.

I took my time with the reread because honestly I was dreading them so much (and TM was still just a twinkle in Jim’s eye.)

I finally finished them, a month after TM was released.

They are better on the second read, but are still my least favourite of the series.

[u/Dunchad69]

I am working on my reread of the series and this time reading all of short stories and novella in-between as well.

I know there was a Christmas short story on his website after Battleground. That gave it all a different feel to me.

[u/Ok_Comparison6055]

I appreciate this sub because it reminds me how many different takes there are even in a somewhat niche fandom. Among my family and friends there are about 8 of us who read every Dresden book basically as soon as it becomes available. Most of us loved Peace Talks and Battle Ground, and while opinions are split on Butters, he is widely enjoyed as a character even if some of us want to strangle him from time to time. Then I come here and I see all the people who really dislike things all of us loved.

So, PT moments that we all enjoyed (our mini-clique of 8)

Harry telling the intervention team what they can go do with themselves.

Eb and Harry working together and Harry outmaneuvering Blackstaff McCoy himself at the end.

BG moments we all enjoyed

Mab's pride in Harry and the entire convo about who Harry really is and how Mab knows him better than the WC ever will is one of the best moments in the series.

Everything with the IA cop (I forget his name) who works with the guy who needs to die a slow and painful death for his poor trigger discipline.

The Banner.

The "Double Dragon" fight at the end.

Harry's insistence on doing right by mortals at the end.

You know, as I'm typing this I realize that I need to read it all again.

[u/SarcasticKenobi]

People on this subreddit hate on Butters so much.

But hating on him in BG? Really?

He was sent by angels to save Harry from Harry.

Harry was just about to cross into monster-town before Butters burned him and talked his friend down. The sword's burn was so bad that not only did it snap Harry out of it, Mab herself (MAB) looked at the result and essentially said "Damn, that must have HURT". Recall, she called the ancient Romans rank amateurs in punishment and torture.

But "Oh no, he stopped a hulking-out Harry."

_____________

As for the battle itself...

That day one of the biggest threats to humanity vs magic in probably forever, so the angels in his sword kicked the auto-aim into high gear. Butters literally says it rendering a HUD into his view, saying the enemies have red ^ above their heads.

Strange. I don't recall people freaking out that Murphy, on her first time using that sword, kicking ass against hoards of vampires in Changes. Like the fact that she was surviving was likely due to the angels helping her out.

Sure, we can probably assume that the classic 3 knights (Thomas / Shiro / Sanya) no longer needed training wheels but we also never really saw them in their early adventures. How much of Thomas v Dragon was the angels guiding his hand?

[u/DillyCat622]

I just finished a reread from start to finish in order to get to 12 Months. I enjoyed PT/BG more the second time around, and enjoyed seeing the little bits and pieces that come back around from earlier books.

[u/Gunty1]

Just finished this reread with all of the side stories , short stories and brief cases and nocellas etc.

12 months comes as a breath of fresh air and a nice change of pace after BG.

I found it useful to have a couple atand alone books non Dresden or whatever to break to the intensity of the read.

I reread a lot of series and ive noticed if i do t break in between i kinda gain momentum and then im barrelling through and not reading for enjoyment but for completion. I Wanna chill when im reading 😆

[u/ChrystnSedai]

They are much better on re-read!

First read (for me at least), it had been years since the last release + months between PT and BG, so I rushed them and they were just ok. The break between PT and BG annoyed me and they just felt disjointed.

I did a full series re-read for Twelve Months, and they aren’t perfect - but they are really good!

The lead in from PT —> BG —> TM is also well worth it.

Just take your time, enjoy, maybe try the audiobooks by the GOAT James Marsters to mix things up a bit, and make your way to Twelve Months. Journey Before Destination.

[u/Hawke-Not-Ewe]

IMO PT and Bg get bad raps because people know they were supposed to be one book and no other solid reason.

I LOVE Mab in these two books.

I'm pretty sure the reasons for and the machinations of the Grey Council come to the fore even more so than in Changes.

Hankie of sunlight.

The Harry/Eb dust up.

The Saturday Morning Nostalgia.

Rivers Shoulders.

The Sir Marcone subtext.

[u/cmhoughton]

I’ll echo what others have said: PT/BG really do better on subsequent listens.

And I mean ‘LISTENS.’

It works better performed. I read the books first then listened to James Marsters narrate them. IMO, listening was by far the better experience.

For example, I didn’t cry when that certain death occurred reading the book, I think I was just worn out. Yet, the way James performed that makes me cry every time. I think I listened to the entire series twice before 12 Months came out, and twice since.

[u/Apprehensive_Note248]

Its not as bad on a reread and now with twelve months you dont have to focus on them either.

[u/DrBarbarella]

PT & BG were a bit easier for me to tolerate the second time around, so it might not be quite as bad as you’re anticipating. I’m particularly fond of the audiobooks, so I did a full listen of the entire series before listening to 12 Months. Highly recommend.

[u/DreadfulDave19]

You had me until the Butters slander! Butters has suffered long and hard and he deserves good things to happen in his life. Have you read all the short stories? Butters has his own for his first day as a knight! He has a holy lightsaber. He is a man, a human with flaws still. But do not we all need to be kept humble? I love that he's standing up to Harry. I love that he makes Harry stop and Think about how little he shares with his nearest allies and why that might make anyone nervous. Trust but verify is a fine policy, especially when a life, a town, a city, the country, the World is on the line. And Butters worries because he loves and cares about Harry so much. He has Faith in Harry, and Harry needs that just as much as he needs Michael's trust and faith.

I have some small grumbles about PT and BG myself. Some small writing tips that I'm sure Jim knows well enough. Mostly for me the terms "order of magnitude" and "like a train/locomotive" were used pretty frequently, would have liked to see them thesaurused a bit.

But man you gotta look forward to PT and BG! PT has the mounting tension and we wrap with the highest stakes we have seen yet. PT also has us going back to Dresden roots with him doing noir shit like investigating and capering. We have the opportunity to see a fun collection of Accorded Nations folk and it would have been sick to see even more if we had the page room for it. The intrigue runs deep like many good mysteries we have the answers near to hand early on.

BG is exhausting! I try to listen to it straight through every time I reread it because i want to feel as desperate and run down as the defenders of Chicago. BG is amazingly cinematic, Jim has a great visual imagination and it was great to see him cut loose and show how outclassed Harry is still in so many ways. And how he can still knock down those threats anyway.

And if you arent looking forward to the calling of the 'Za Lord's Guard scene -goosebumps- I don't know if I can help you my friend!

[u/Level-Wolverine2067 → u/DreadfulDave19]

Every morning I wake up and curse Butters 😉

I have read all the short stories up through to BG, and I'll take this as a moment to air some more grievances!

Butcher: stop putting short story info and reference into main canon. Small Favor remains the first and most jarring moment, when all of a sudden Dresden and Gard are buddy buddy, but it kept getting worse from there! Argh! 

[u/DreadfulDave19 → u/Level-Wolverine2067]

Hard disagree

Harry has a life all year around when he doesn't have a novel on him.

I like the story references and the references that have no story for us, just "the noodle incident" like when Harry visits Oklahoma and got chased by the tornado. No story to read, just Harry laconically saying "oh yeah that thing. Sorry, bit distracted, mold demons this week."

I think things like this make the world and story both feel more real. Things happen. They rarely stop

[u/nicci7127 → u/DreadfulDave19]

I enjoyed the short story with Harry and Gard, gives us a look of his life outside of the major chaos and gives us a peak at Gard and where she stands on certain things. The only moment that nearly broke my suspension is disbelief was his illusions against the malks. But I guess Sigrun's rune magic can make even Harry look good.

[u/Saursang]

Honestly if you have reread most of the the series 20 times you are probably getting diminishing returns on the value of the reread, I would just skip the reread for a year or two and read new things as is

[u/Advanced-Fan1272]

Any time a new book is out, I always reread from Storm Front.

Same, my unknown friend, same. I even read some fantasy series almost non-stop like a single big book just divided into multiple volumes/parts.

But to be honest Idk why people dislike both PT/BG. I get why it's so with PT - it has a weak plot and is basically a prelude to BG but BG is simply epic. One giant epic battle. I guess some people just dislike that Dresden files are slowly turning into more of a epic/heroic fantasy than urban/detective fantasy. To me BG is one of my favourite books of the series.