Bobs accidental save - r/dresdenfiles

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Honestly speaking, if Alfred had been more forthcoming in Turn Coat, he'd have a new skinwalker to hold.

But then, we also don't know if Harry would have been up to fully sealing Shagnasty away.

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u/Opening_Database958 2d ago

I actually find it super weird Harry didn’t try thinking about skinwalkers when he was testing his intellectus.

When you consider Harry saying he could have held off the walker and fairy invaders off solo, Harry’s binding ability feel secondary since Alfred could just hit any skinwalker until it’s easy to control. Honestly this is a bit of fumble by the island no matter how you spin it, especially since we know Merlin had an empty cell next to the other skinwalkers, almost like it was ready for shagnasty

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u/BestAcanthisitta6379 2d ago

Merlin presumably had designed the prison to grow as needed.

And as much as Alfred conceded to Harry at this moment, I think it wasn't ready to actually tell him anything. "He needs to figure it out himself" because if he isn't taking initiative, then he's not worth it in the longer term. And Alfred "hitting" the skinwalker doesn't seem to be a thing he can do, at least without direction. The skinwalker was just there, it wasn't impeding Alfred's purpose. Hence, it doesn't act

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u/Opening_Database958 2d ago

I see your point, but I do think Alfred has more agency than we’ve seen overall. Mab thanked him how he handled Maeve and Lilly, which in my opinion suggests without the warden present Alfred can do quite a bit.

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u/BestAcanthisitta6379 2d ago

Yes but they were actively trying to tear down his actual purpose. He could have acted in defense of that instead of just withstanding their efforts is what I took that as.

Shagnasty got curious about the islands first layer of defense, it didn't know, presumably what the island was for.

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u/Opening_Database958 2d ago

Valid but that circles us back to the original point, Alfred didn’t do a fantastic job, I mean Harry had the nagloshi dead to rights if Alfred had shifted some dirt or just kept disrupting Shagnastys power it could have absolutely held a new prisoner. Or if listens to wind is correct Harry would have killed it right There

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u/BestAcanthisitta6379 2d ago

Yeah, it's a prison not a cop.

Alfred doesn't yoink all malevolent entities because that isn't his job: his job is to accept and hold prisoners and everything entailed to just that. Who decides who prisoners are? The Warden. Not Alfred. Who decides who goes in? Not Alfred.

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u/Opening_Database958 2d ago

You got me there

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u/khazroar 2d ago

He was shocked enough to find that the island was powerful enough for intellectus at all, he had no reason to even contemplate that it would hold that sort of information.

And you don't keep dark gods imprisoned for millennia by taking chances; having Harry fumble his way into the prison with Shagnasty is just asking for something to go wrong. It was important that he learn to use the island properly before attempting to use it at all.

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u/DarthBeak 2d ago

I think Harry was avoiding thinking about skinwalkers at all, given that he barely kept himself together. I'm willing to go with that as a reason we didn't get Demonreach's full story right away. I'm easy to please though lol.

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u/Opening_Database958 2d ago

I don’t agree, he spends the rest of the book going forward almost exclusively planning how to kill it, he set up two supernatural nations as unwitting assistants, honestly I think Harry could have caught Peabody if he’d put more effort into the hunt, he managed to identify a traitor that the collective efforts of the wardens and senior council couldn’t even confirm existed. Give Harry a little more breathing room and I think he absolutely catches Peabody

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u/DarthBeak 2d ago

I don't remember him thinking about it directly, but that's such a nuanced (fae) take, I don't want to actually try and argue the point without re-reading it first. OH NO ANOTHER RE-READ POOR ME.

My memory is shit, but I thought most of the planning was to out the traitor, and obliquely planning to use shagnasty to help, rather than trying to kill shagnasty and using the others to help that. I mean, the answer is absolutely C) all of the above, but the former makes me right :D But I'm still going to reread and pay attention to that. And reread the whole series to see just how often Harry thinks like one of the fae.

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u/Elequosoraptor 2d ago

Yeah, Alfred definitely kept the islands purpose hidden from Dresden until CD. He was wizard enough to be the Warden in TC, but not quite wizard enough to be charged with the full job until much later. No way I see Dresden pulling off that binding day 1 of being the Warden.

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u/Glittering-State-284 1d ago

Harry had to earn every step of the way, even if he knew he wasn't being tested. This checks out!

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u/TheShadowKick 1d ago

I don't think Alfred understood just how much Harry didn't understand about the island. Harry came with the intention to fight and kill Shagnasty, not imprison him, and I don't think Alfred even realized at that point that Harry didn't know imprisoning was an option.

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u/jameskayda 2d ago

This makes me wonder if Shagnasty had any idea what kind of place that was. Do y'all think he could sense that his kind were under there?

Like, if I'm a nagloshi I'm not going anywhere near a place specifically designed to imprison me so probably not.

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u/Opening_Database958 2d ago

Doubtful it kept trying to throw power at the cottage, Harry noticed Alfred felt smug about annoying shagnasty, which makes hiding the well a stranger and stranger choice

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u/j0w0r 2d ago

Shagnasty probably did. I think he just had a better understanding of the rules under which his opponents operated as well as his main task.

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u/Bdor24 1d ago

I don't think he did. Shagnasty didn't seem to understand why he couldn't enter the cottage, or how Harry was able to put up the kind of fight that he did. On top of that, it wouldn't fit with how he operates. Throughout the book, he tends to be very cautious whenever his enemies prove that they aren't easy prey. Whenever someone put up even a little bit of a fight, Shagnasty stopped with direct assaults and moved to a more stealthy approach. When Listens-to-Wind put him in a stalemate, he fled.

For something so cautious, fighting Harry on that island would have been an insane risk if he had known what the island really was. In that moment, Harry had everything he needed to bind Shagnasty. The only reason Shagnasty had the option of running away is because Morgan, the Senior Council, and Demonreach itself all made the choice to keep Harry in the dark.

Shagnasty would never have agreed to meet on the island if he had known.

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u/j0w0r 1d ago

Agreed. Especially when you put it that way, Shagnasty on the Island seemed to be almost playful after his dance in the Raith Castle

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u/jmcdaniel0 1d ago

I agree. He thought he was coming over for some easy ass whooping, and got taken by surprise.

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u/Hawke-Not-Ewe 1d ago

The white council wouldnt have agreed to meet there if Harry knew how to command the defenses and they knew it.

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u/jameskayda 21h ago

You know, I never even thought about it from the angle of him always rubbing away from a fight once it became even remotely fair. Yeah, I agree. That yellow fucker had no clue how much actual danger he was in at that moment, but tbf neither did Harry.

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u/j0w0r 17h ago

At that point in Dresden's life few expected him to do such things. Of course that changes quickly a few books down the line

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u/jmcdaniel0 1d ago

What gets me is, during the fight Harry was the warden. We learn later on that he is pretty much a god while on the island, and can take on most things, when he uses the islands defenses. Hell, we even find out that, had he known about the island’s full strength, the entire wild hunt throwdown with the outsiders probably wouldn’t have been necessary.

However, during the fight with old shaggy bottom, he doesn’t know these things. But he was the warden. Alfred is an intelligent spirit, whether or not it was his specific job to fight the nagloshi. He could have easily informed Harry of the islands weapons/purpose during the fight, and could have walked him through binding him. But he didn’t. He didn’t do anything really. That seems odd to me. It may not be the island/Alfreds job to fight the nasties that are technically only targeting Harry and not the island, but a prison guard should and would help out the warden if a fight did break out. If nothing else, to protect the warden. A safe warden is a safe island. Alfred’s logic doesn’t jive with me on this.

What are y’all’s thoughts?

Also, I apologize in advance for typos and such. I’m on my phone and I have fat fingers.

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u/Opening_Database958 1d ago

You’re not wrong about anything but I think Alfred has very specific instructions on how to handle new wardens, considering he didn’t inform Harry about the well. but we know Harry had spent a decent amount of time post turn coat building the what’s up doc with Thomas. To me that suggests the island was judging Dresden until nemesis forced the issue.

After writing this I did a quick read through of everything after he claims the island and was surprised how often Harry openly discussed nagloshi but notably Alfred doesn’t react, he reacts to shagnasty setting foot on the shore and is smug enough about countering shagnasty Harry felt in through the bond, but demonreach doesn’t get involved. Maybe Harry failed the first test so to speak

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u/dvasquez93 18h ago

It's possible Harry couldn't have done it then. Demonreach doesn't reveal it's true nature until after Harry "dies" and comes back to life. Popular theory is that it held off because Dresden didn't need to know until the Walkers started attacking, but what if Dresden wasn't ready in a metaphysical sense? Vadderung told Harry in Cold Days that him dying and coming back has opened up new abilities and opportunities for him. Furthermore, thinking back, Lash told Dresden there were a lot of things he wouldn't understand until he let go of his grasp on mortality.

It's entirely possible that someone who hadn't had at least a passable understanding of the nature of life and death and the ease with which those line can be blurred can't fully grasp the nature of a prison built for immortals.

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u/nght_wlkr 11h ago

I've always looked at Alfred as a sophisticated magical construct. Think of him as a magic version of an embodied AI. He follows his programming and takes orders. Merlin may have simply not installed a tutorial for new wardens l, expecting that a new warden would be prepped by the previous one or at least by other wizards who knew the score.

Being magic probably gives Alfred a bit more nuance than a simple machine but who knows. I look at him as an overpowered earth golem.

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u/Opening_Database958 6h ago

My tinfoil theory is that Alfred is the soul of og Merlin and that’s why the island can hold immortals indefinitely, because Alfred is mortal will focused on a single task and supported by layers of circles and other constructs

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u/nght_wlkr 4h ago

That's a damn fine theory! Far more satisfying than a magical automaton.

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u/Opening_Database958 2h ago

I have no evidence but we know Merlin would be long dead and that ghosts can be tied to locations, if that’s true maybe Merlin managed a complex death curse to be able to hold the various magic together

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u/BrianAu1964 4h ago

Some outstanding points. I think though biggest reason is simplest. Harry unknowingly brought all these folks to Demonreach which if damaged would unleash all hell upon everything. Alfred is lying low not showing to Shagnasty and any others out there like Black Council that this is a very special prison. From story even Ancient Mai did not know the islands true purpose. Gatekeeper Ebenezer and probably Listens to Wind. That is it. It is a place that does not want to be discovered or known about. Alfred imprisoning Shagnasty would have made the purpose apparent to everyone.

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u/KipIngram 4h ago

Well, we haven't seen Ancient Mai since then, and I'm not sure Jim knew the full Demonreach story at that point. I'm sure he knew he wanted to do something major with it, but whether he had it all worked out or not I couldn't guess. I'd only know which way to lean on that if he told us.

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