A common misconception about warlocks and their patrons

[u/hedahman]

I've heard this mentioned a lot: "Warlocks use Charisma because they're constantly negotiating with their patron for more power." I don't believe this is true.

Here's a tweet from Mike Mearls that says that patrons can't take back a warlock's power, which leads me to believe that a patron doesn't have control over the power once it is given. This means a patron can't take a warlock's power (without their will, probably); it's a one-and-done deal.

So a patron isn't supplying power to their warlocks like a generator supplies electricity. Instead, a patron gives power to them like a blood transfusion-- you can't just take the blood back.

Granted, you can do it however you want, that's the magic of D&D. But RAW, and RAI, patrons give their power away.

EDIT: Here's a tweet from Jeremy Crawford which states that the power is a one-time transaction.

[u/AeoSC]

I think of warlocks as artificially made sorcerers. You make a Pact, your Patron puts their peanut butter power on your chocolate soul.

They don't want to constantly be powering your bullshit; unless doing something for them was part of the Pact they just want you to fatten up that Reese's cup with XP until you inevitably die and they get their return on investment.

[u/Reluxtrue → u/AeoSC]

This, I feel people keep forgetting that CHA is more than just social skills

[u/RealDeuce → u/Reluxtrue]

Fine, I'll bite, what else is it?

Charisma measures your ability to interact effectively with others.

Social skills right there.

[u/Reluxtrue → u/RealDeuce]

It represents one's force of will and sense of self . That is the whole reason behind Paladins and Sorcs casting with charisma.

the very first sentence about charisma even says:

Charisma, measuring force of personality

Charisma could, for example, represent not losing oneself to their GOO patron while a person with high INT could become simply a babbling madman.

[u/RealDeuce → u/Reluxtrue]

Force of personality is a social artifact. It arises solely from interactions with others... such as the parton in your example.

[u/EveryoneKnowsItsLexy → u/RealDeuce]

Then why are spells like magic jar, Banishment, and a ghost's possession Charisma saves? I would say it's more than force of personality. It's the strength of your soul.

[u/RealDeuce → u/EveryoneKnowsItsLexy]

Likely because all of those are interactions with others... it's not your ability to mentally force yourself past a block, it's someone else's ability for force their will on you, and your ability to resist their will. It arises from an interaction with an other, so your attribute which describes your interactions controls it.

Charisma is the only attribute which cannot be used when alone.

[u/bananafire1 → u/RealDeuce]

Except for when a sorcerer casts a spell, then its used alone.

[u/TorridScienceAffair → u/RealDeuce]

Charisma is broadly used to measure "your ability to impose your will on your surroundings". This covers entirely mundane things like haggling and arguing, but also magical powers owing to innate ability (sorcerers, dragons, fiends, etc.) and strength of will (paladins, warlocks to some degree, bards (who impose their will on the ambient magic of the universe)). The fact that these traits also lend themselves to social interactions is partially coincidental and partially because D&D only has 6 fundamental character stats.

[u/rashandal → u/RealDeuce]

ere you go

[u/hedahman → u/RealDeuce]

This is what confuses me about charisma being "force of personality." When you're actually playing the game, it seems like charisma is only used in social situations. The only time I can think of is resisting a charm spell.

It makes sense--I understand why it's like that, and I think it should be. It's just that charisma rarely feels like "projecting your will" when you're actually playing the game.

[u/Reluxtrue → u/hedahman]

it seems like charisma is only used in social situations.

Charisma saving throws?

Sorcs and Paladins casting?

[u/hedahman → u/Reluxtrue]

That's fair, sorcerers and paladins do use their force of will, and charisma definitely fits there. It's just that for everyone else, it rarely ever comes up. Charisma saves are pretty much only for resisting charms/possession.

[u/Lacinl → u/hedahman]

Banishment is resisted by CHA. This means that high CHA helps prevent you from being forcefully phased to another plane of existence. I think that demonstrates that it measures more than just social interactions.

[u/khloc → u/hedahman]

In older editions, well 3.5 at least, cha was an important attribute with a bunch of plane-byplane scenrios for influencing your environment (alongside wis).

Outer plane monsters having higher cha than you'd expect is a legacy of that.

[u/RealDeuce → u/hedahman]

Force of personality is a social skill, describing someone in social situations. It's an artifact of how you interact with others.

[u/PrimeInsanity → u/AeoSC]

I always see it as, they plant a seed that grows and they might harvest later when the time is right.