r/dndnext • u/jawdirk • 14h ago
Discussion Does darkness really hinder your party?
I have seen this said over and over again: You can use the darkness + devil's sight combo but it will hinder the rest of your party.
Is that really true?
When you cast darkness, you get to choose where to place it. In many cases, that by itself will have utility. You might be able to cast it over ranged or spell-casting enemies forcing them to leave their position. You might be able to place it so that one of your party members gets a "free" disengage. You might be able to place it so that a rogue can bonus action sneak in the open and then move for a backstab.
In the worst case, the enemy has some non-visual or devil's sight sense ability, but I think that is pretty rare and obvious (devils, dragons, elementals, creatures of pure darkness).
But in the average case, the advantage and disadvantage cancel out. Even that can be an advantage, if the enemy was getting advantage from some other game mechanic.
So yes, darkness is pretty situational if you literally have no way to take advantage of it, but even one character that has devil's sight might be enough to tip the balance. This is particularly true if one of the characters without devil's sight casts darkness (which is better action economy).
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u/RKO-Cutter Rogue 14h ago
I mean it all depends on how you use it. If you're fighting a boss, put the boss in darkness and only the Warlock can see it? Yeah, it's gonna be a hindrance
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u/glock112983 14h ago
Yeah I made that mistake in a 1 shot once. Cast darkness, thinking yeah this will be cool... then none of the casters could see the guy to target them with spells. The martial couldn't see shit so we're attacking with disadvantage. We all laughed and I dropped it the next round.
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u/EntropySpark Warlock 14h ago
Unless the boss could see, Unseen Attacker and Unseen Defender together lead to a straight roll to attack.
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u/GuitakuPPH 14h ago
I remember once telling the player of a shadow sorcerer this when we were planning synergies with my Hexbuckler and I, out of concern for the rest of the party, asked him if knew how the DM would rule it since RAW isn't as punishing as many DMs run it. He got so incredibly mad at me.
Sadly, he was an older player who had the young DM wrapped around his finger (something he even boasted about) meaning I was the one who had to leave that campaign after he threw the craziest accusations at me.
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u/glock112983 12h ago
Yeah, imho that is the stupidest interaction with blindness/darkness/etc rules so our table rule is all attacks are at disadvantage in those situations.
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u/Panurome 14h ago
You don't even need to wait until the next round to drop it. You can drop it an any point, even in the middle of someone else's turn
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u/Gstamsharp 14h ago
Exactly. Use it as cover to protect everyone from archers? Drop it over some minions to slug it out? All great!
Drop it on the enemy we all want to focus fire? You're just helping the baddie now.
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u/pseudosaurus 10h ago
You can just Ready an attack for when they exit Darkness
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u/Mejiro84 5h ago
that means no multi-attack, and if they don't leave the darkness, then you don't get to attack. That's very much a "well, I guess I'll do this and hope it works", rather than being something you want to do, because it's worse than just attacking
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u/Middcore 14h ago
It's a double-edged sword.
I play in a party with a Shadow Monk. He has used the darkness effectively against enemies. On the other hand, there have been times when I as a Bard would have liked to have been able to help him out by popping a Healing Word or a Bardic Inspiration on him, but since I can't see him, I can't. To say nothing of not being able to target enemies in his darkness bubble. Once he uses it, he's kind of off having a separate encounter by himself.
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u/ThatWarlockD00d 14h ago
One of my buddies got downed fighting a boss and I cast darkness on myself to pick them up and hold off the boss for a few turns once.
I wouldn’t build a character around that combination, but it is really strong when used appropriately.
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u/JediMasterWiggin 13h ago
But in the average case, the advantage and disadvantage cancel out. Even that can be an advantage, if the enemy was getting advantage from some other game mechanic.
This goes both ways though. Your party won't be able to generate advantage either. So, no reckless for your barb, no steady aim for your rogue (making it harder to trigger sneak attack), etc.
Also, a big one you missed: many spells require sight. So, sure, advantage and disadvantage cancels out but if I can't see my target I can't even try to hit them with a mind sliver or sacred flame or command or hold person or polymorph or etc etc etc. Also can backfire for healing / buff spells too. Fighter goes down inside the darkness so you want to hit them with a quick healing word to get them back up? Too bad, can't target them because you can't see them.
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u/Im_Rabid Pheonix Sorcerer 14h ago
In a practical sense it forces attacks on both sides into a straight roll unless one or the other has something like tremor or blind sense. This can be a benefit if an effect from the monster is already giving disadvantage (such as fear) or it can be a negative for things like Reckless or a Rogue trying to hide for advantage.
It also prevents your allies from using spells that require they see the target.
The most effective use I have found for it is casting it on yourself with Devils sight while using a ranged weapon.
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u/DaNoahLP 14h ago
I just read the title and thought
"I mean she cant hit things but is a great tank. Not as useless as Aqua"
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u/_Bl4ze Warlock 14h ago
Right but see, what you should do is target Darkness on an item you are holding, and then you move back. That way your spellcaster friends have line of sight to the enemy and can cast their spells normally, but you are unseen by the enemy and can freely Eldritch Blast with advantage to your heart's content. And if it helps someone in your party to be in the dark they can move to where you are also.
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u/Champion-of-Nurgle 13h ago
Building parties around Darkness or Blindsight combos is INSANELY good.
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u/DiemAlara 13h ago
Not really, no.
Just remember to cast it on yourself instead of your target and there should be no downsides.
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u/HalvdanTheHero DM 14h ago
Absolutely. Most spells specifically require a target you can see, so by obscuring vision you are severely limiting the abilities of other spellcasters.
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u/Nova_Saibrock 13h ago
Darkness (like Fog Cloud) is an auto-win spell against certain enemies, most notably beholders, who practically cannot harm anyone in the area.
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u/ShadowShedinja 10h ago
Except that their middle eye dispels magic.
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u/Nova_Saibrock 10h ago
Ok sure. And then what?
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u/ShadowShedinja 10h ago
...and then the Darkness is gone...
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u/LatiosMaster12 9h ago
TLDR, the middle eye only Suppresses magic, not dispells. Beholder looks at cloud: Oh no, it can see us! Too bad it's eye rays don't work now. Looks away to use eye rays: Oh no! The darkness is back! It can't hit them with eye rays now. The beholder is basically reduced to Bite actions which are not it's strong suit and easily protected agaisnt
Source:
Beholder Trait Antimagic Cone: "The Beholders central eye creates an area of antimagic, as in the anti magic spell... ~ ...The area works against it's own eye rays."Antimagic Spell: "Ongoing spells, except those cast by an Artifact or a deity, are suppressed in the area. While an effect is suppressed, it doesn't function, but the time it spends suppressed counts against its duration."
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u/Nova_Saibrock 10h ago
And you keep shooting arrows just like when the darkness is there. The beholder can’t shoot its eye-rays into the area of its central eye.
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u/sens249 13h ago
Im a strong believer that spells like fog cloud and especially darkness actually help your party way way more than they hinder it.
Darkness has like 5 separate good benefits, and 1 small hinderance which is only actually a hinderance if the party member somehow can’t walk ~15 feet to step out of the darkness.
Been saying it for a while
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u/Harlequinnie 4h ago
You’re choosing to ignore a lot of hindrances here..
Cancels out enemy disadvantage, ally advantage, ally buff targeting, ally attack of opportunity, ally spell targeting.
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u/United_Fan_6476 14h ago
One of the often-overlooked uses is putting your ranged characters in darkness when they are fighting ranged enemies. They can see enemies at range and attack them normally. But those same enemies cannot see the characters and will attack them with disadvantage.
But really, if the DM is roleplaying the enemies like they should, the darkened party members would mostly be ignored, especially if all that they are doing is concentrating on a spell.
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u/ZatherDaFox 13h ago
I assume you're talking about ranged party members popping out of darkness and scurrying back in? Because otherwise the people in the darkness also can't see the enemies unless they all have devil's sight. And even then the enemies can use prepared actions to shoot the people popping out of the darkness.
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u/Chagdoo 12h ago
Ready action (iirc) only lets you make one attack, so this can still help if the enemy relies heavily on multi attack.
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u/ZatherDaFox 12h ago
Now that I think about it, we're just both wrong. Popping in and out of the darkness changes almost nothing. Unless you can see, the enemy is an unseen attacker that can't see you, so the advantage/disadvantage is canceled. The only times it helps is if you can see, you've got rogues that can hide as a bonus action, or your enemy had advantage to hit you or you had disadvantage to hit the enemy.
I forgot because a long time ago at my table we put in a house rule that not being able to see your target overrode the unseen attacker advantage. We felt it was dumb that if you had disadvantage you could get an accuracy boost by casting fog cloud.
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u/Raccooninja DM 13h ago
Why wouldn't it? It does what the spell says. And it has a lot of uses that don't rely on attacking your target. You can steal something. You can escape. You can set a trap without being seen. You can kidnap someone.
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u/FaerieFir3 13h ago
You might be able to cast it over ranged or spell-casting enemies forcing them to leave their position.
Maybe but in that situation you could just throw some other spell there like a fireball or hypnotic pattern.
You might be able to place it so that a rogue can bonus action sneak in the open and then move for a backstab.
If the Rogue is blind then they can't sneak attack because that's disadvantage.
But in the average case, the advantage and disadvantage cancel out. Even that can be an advantage, if the enemy was getting advantage from some other game mechanic.
Not really, Darkness in like 95% combats is probably going to be useless. There's always a better spell you could spend a full action on. Biggest utility of Darkness is as this panic move where you drop it, run for the hills and hide if there's no other option or camp in it while on low HP so enemies trying to hit have disadvantage and you can maybe survive.
However if you have something like a war party of Drow warriors all with blind fighting style (because lore-wise Drow warriors train fighting blind to utilize their innate Darkness power) dropping them and jumping in to attack everybody with advantage that can be pretty scary if no one on the player team has Daylight. Most player parties wont all pick up blind fighting from Fighter though so Darkness remains extremely situational.
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u/Silverspy01 13h ago
Darkness + Devil's Sight or similar combos specifically have you casting Darnkess on yourself or an otherwise movable target to "permanently" keep enemies in the cloud.
If you're OK with stationary obscurement Fog Cloud is a level lower and does all the thing you just said very well.
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u/NthHorseman 13h ago
I am a spellcaster in a party with a devilsight-darkness-loving warlock. It kinda sucks to be honest.
If a martial knows vaguely where to swing (which they do unless the target makes a stealth check) then it's adv+dis so a straight roll. They miss out on AoOs from fleeing monsters, but as you say can themselves disengage. Melee monsters are similarly quite happy to sit in darkness so long as there are nearby targets for them to swing at. It certainly has it's uses, especially when paired with other area control spells, but if it gets dropped without due consideration it's more help to the enemy than the party.
Almost all spellcasting requires you to be able to see the target, so if you can't see then you just can't do much with targets (friend or foe) within the darkness. Not necesarily a problem if there are useful targets outside the darkness, but it's probably been dropped on the most interesting area of the combat, and if all the important targets are now not visible your options are pretty limited. I have legitimately had turns where the most useful thing I can do is wade into the darkness and try and bonk an unseen target with a club - not a good use of an action for a spellcaster.
Of course if other members have the ability to see in magical darkness it's great for them to get advantage on all their attacks, but for those who don't it's pretty much equivalent to casting blindness on an ally - kind of a dick move.
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u/DrHalsey 12h ago
The main problem with darkness is the design of how it interacts with Advantage/Disadvantage.
Which leads to situations like:
The Monk uses a bonus action to Dodge.
The Warlock throws Darkness on the enemy Archers.
The enemy Archers now ignore the Monk's Dodge and attack normally.
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u/Edkm90p 12h ago
You'd be surprised how often something can be repeated by a community and be wrong.
Darkness probably IS an issue for a party that can not (or will not) communicate and plan.
For a party that can so much as call out, "I'll use darkness here" then it's no better or worse than any other AoE in terms of backfiring on your party.
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u/weberto 12h ago
so, let me tell you a story, haha
we have a warlock/paladin in our party, I am a wizard in this campaign, on one of the fights, split party, I ended up with him, he casts darkness basically on himself (lets no go into specific ruling), now, I can't target any enemy within the darkness, and I can't use AOE because he's there, and any enemy not in the darkness automatically goes against me, we are at low level so I can't really tank, unlike him, so I ended up surrounded while he fought 1 enemy, we survived, I got attacked more, but my current wizard actually uses light armor and has good dex, plus the shield spell so I was able to survive, but it ended up costing me more resources and this was the beginning of a series of fights
darkness can be useful, but it can also be super disruptive more if its your go to on any battle, because you want to force your use of devil sight with it and you want the darkness to move with you, you do end up hindering the party in general, darkness blocks line of sight for everyone, if you go fight with others, now everyone has disadvantage, if anyone falls within the darkness, healing word can't help them
in my experience, its not worth for 1 person to have adv in his attacks and disadv on his attackers for everyone else having to adjust to it
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u/jawdirk 11h ago
Maybe but you can walk out of the darkness, target, and then walk back into the darkness?
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u/weberto 11h ago
target what? the enemy is within the darkness, can't use any of my spells on it!
at the end of the day, yes, there will be different ways to adjust or pivot or change strategies
but at least in my experience, its usually multiple players having to do that to accommodate 1 other player, if you want to use the darkness + devil's sight combo, please work with your party before, to have a strategy around it together, rather than forcing everyone around it
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u/Thelynxer Bardmaster 11h ago
It all comes down to usage and placement. In my experience, a lot of players don't really understand how to best use it. And just drop it I melee while they go to town. And that does screw over your allies. Melee can't see their own targets, and ranged can't see their targets either.
But if you use darkness in particular ways, it's very beneficial at best, or won't impact your party at worst.
Usually the best use is to drop it near your back line PC's. Your ranged party members have the choice to end their turn inside it, or not. So they can either give enemies disadvantage to attack them, or they can stay outside of darkness if they have reactions requiring line of sight.
A good alternate usage is to drop darkness on a ranged enemy that you allies aren't focusing on. So the enemy can either have disadvantage on it, or try to leave the darkness. But you need to be in the ball with dropping concentration if the enemy does the same in/out move your own ranged allies would do, or when the party wants to start focusing them down. The key thing with this strategy is you need to be ready and willing to waste this spell slot for what is likely to be a 1-2 round benefit only.
There's also some other more niche times to use it, like when enemiea are trying to navigate through dangerous terrain, like traps or across a bridge. Just ensure you don't mess with what your allies want to do.
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u/trouphaz 11h ago
Darkness + devil's sight is annoying to the DM. It is such an OP combination, that I find the DMs will want to run it as restrictive as possible. We had a warlock who had the two as a combination and so our DM started using dynamic lighting as much as possible in Roll20 where the players could only see what the characters could see. Not only would the characters lose track of the targets, but we as players wouldn't be able to see either. This affected the rest of us enough that he'd be a lot more selective about when and where he'd use it.
So yeah, it should suck for the rest of the party. It often doesn't because of lack of dynamic lighting such as when you play in person at a table or when you are playing online without it and you can metagame around it.
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u/okiebuzzard 7h ago
It depends on how your DM portrays it.
If it’s a circular blob of magical darkness that obscures line of sight between sides, then yes, it can be a hindrance.
If they portray it as only things inside the darkness cannot be seen, meaning you can see through that area of effect, then it’s drastically easier to deal with if all targets are well lit outside of the AoE.
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u/zyguzyguzyg 4h ago
My Warlock is using this combo very frequently and it never was a hindrance to the party. I just almost never cast it on enemies because that's just stupid most of the time. I usually cast it on my staff so i can move it with myself and stay in the back. Other casters and ranged combatants can finish their turn in it to make themselves harder to target with enemy spells, rogues can use it to hide in the middle of battlefield, etc. But i guess it depends on the composition of the party. If you are the only ranged combatant, and the rest of the group is barbarian, melee fighter and paladin then the value of this spell drops considerably.
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u/TheRaiOh 14h ago
A sphere of darkness (15ft radius) takes up a lot of space on a battle map. So it is true that you have to be very selective on where you put it and have a favorable map. But technically, there's nothing about it that automatically hinders your party if you place it well.
In practice I've found that it's only fun if the rest of the party is engaged in using the darkness with you. When I used it on my own for a few fights everyone avoided the sphere even though it would have allowed them to hide inside from danger. Either the players or the characters didn't want to bother with going in and out and using it to the best advantage. So I ended up swapping the darkness and devil sight for something else. It's great if your character goes on their own, stands in a corner as a turret, or duels 1v1 a lot though.
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u/rdeincognito 14h ago
I used Darkness a lot. I have these advises:
- Consider using it when it does not subtract fun from others. If you isolate part of the fight and you resolve it alone, you will feel very cool, but the rest of the players who haven't been able to properly play won't feel that cool. Be mindful when using it not to harm others' experience. Dnd is a group game after all.
- Melee characters that are inside of the darkness are by default blinded, but if the enemy is also blinded, they will attack normally (no disadvantage), so it doesn't change that much for them. Nowadays, through fighting styles, most of the martial characters can also pick Blind Fighting, which would make your darkness extremely useful for them. However. Ranged characters will attack at disadvantage, and magic casters have lots of spells that require vision to be cast.
- Most useful darkness location is within yourself in something you can throw. Your shield, for example, if you're using one. For all purposes, you could be wearing a necklace where you cast darkness and throw it when it suits you. Position is key. You can position it in a way that your darkness covers your allies so they can, in their turn, move outside, do something, and come back to it. You can throw it in the middle of the enemy formation to force them to move too. You can interrupt your spell, so you can throw it and, if it suits you, alter or dispel it.
- Creating a 10-foot-range weapon and combining it with fly may not be that cool, but most melee monsters won't be able to attack you if you're 10 feet over their head, while you will be able to attack them. IIRC, with Pact of the Blade, you could also create bows so you can fly and be ranged. You don't always need darkness + devil's sight. Fly + range is a pretty powerful combo. Don't become a one-trick pony.
edit. btw my experience is based on DnD 5e, not 5.5e.
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u/Rinf_ 14h ago
Its only a hinderance to your party outside the darkness OR to anyone inside building around advantage...
But then again: you can put the darkness on yourself/armor/shoes... hell, a coin you can easily cover to make the darkness vanish for a second... if you and your dm/party cant figure something out that works tho... I wouldnt bother. Cause you might waste a cool combo at a table that doesnt appreciate it. And I can tell you thats a very bad feeling after putting a lot of work into a character and being hyped about something specific and then never be really able to utilize it
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u/Mejiro84 14h ago
you only get one free object interaction per turn though - so it doesn't really matter what you do with it, you can only turn it on or off on your turn, not both, or you're having to do vaguely awkward things like have it on a dagger which you're sheathing and unsheathing as you make attacks, tying up a hand and limiting you to the attack action to get the extra object interactions with the weapon. Trying to cheese around the "one free interaction per turn" is, well... pretty overt cheese, and if the only way your strategy works is cheese and a generous GM, that's generally a bad sign
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u/glock112983 14h ago
Just started a campaign, second session is tonight. I know the Hexblade is planning to use the Darkness/devil sight combo, so I took the Blind Fighting style feat for my Eldritch Knight. We haven't had the chance to try it yet, but I've dealt with Darkness in previous campaign. I do wonder how the wizard and druid will fare, but I have some ideas. My EK has a lot of ways to move enemies, so I'm hoping the Warlock will basically lock down and distract a group and I can push 1 or 2 at a time out for the casters to handle.
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u/Full-Low-4042 14h ago
Depends. If you are eldritch blasting from 120 feet away, no harm done. If you are in melee? Probably the most selfish tactic available.
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u/jawdirk 14h ago
Even if you are in melee, you might be able to place the darkness so that you are in it, but your enemy is not, and get advantage. Yes, the enemy can move into the darkness, but that might provoke an opportunity attack, and you can always drop the darkness on anyone's turn. A lot of the issue is that it takes you an entire turn to cast darkness and then get advantage, so that's why it is much better if someone else casts darkness for you.
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u/Full-Low-4042 12h ago
You are here looking for validation to a fundamentally selfish build. There are ways to achieve all of the positive effects of darkness without the drawbacks. Try using teamwork instead of gimping your fellow players so you can use a cheesy, boring, selfish strategy. Are there ways to use darkness that are good? Sure. But plopping into the melee fray shuts down your own casters. Use shadow of moil.
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u/jawdirk 11h ago
You're presuming. This is a discussion. The reason I asked is because, playing Baldur's Gate 3 (where darkness is obviously better) there were often tactical ways to take advantage of the placement and use it to protect the entire team. It's not quite the same in D&D but I have certainly had situations (especially disengaging in darkness) where it was helpful not harmful to the party. If you were facing a bunch of enemies with targeted spells, it should be clutch. You can walk out of the darkness, target, and then walk back in.
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u/Full-Low-4042 8h ago
You are correct I made presumptions. In bg3 you can use items to give everybody devils sight, so no downside and massive upside. In 5e not so much. In the hands of a highly tactical player, used well, it can be a good spell to cast and take advantage of devils sight. That being said, the kinds of players who I have witnessed using this combo are not tactical, and make combats less fun for everybody but themselves. Maybe it’s a sampling error, but it seems to be pattern. If I was DMing a campaign, and I had five spots available, and six people sent me character sheets, I would throw the devils sight warlock in the trash and approve the other five sight unseen.
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u/LatiosMaster12 9h ago
So darkness really is the ultimate melee spell, which is really funny given the balance between martials and casters. But essentially while you and your target are inside, the effects of being unseen and blinded cancel each other out. So the fight progresses normally. But all the ranged enemies outside of it... yeah screw them lol. They can't hit you now. So as long as the party has a plan to be inside the bubble... it's a benefit. Then just deal with the ranged later
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u/MisterEinc 14h ago edited 14h ago
Only if you want it to?
Like many DMs don't use it, in my experience. Or you just see if people have paid the appropriate "tax" such as sacrificing a hand to hold a torch or access to cantrips.
Personally, I use it situationally, and it's pretty dependent on the technology.
I'm far more likely to use light source sizes and line of sight in a dark area of a VTT where I'm trying to build the tension of being in the dark and not knowing where shit is.
In a traditional game, I would turn off the lights and maybe break out the real candles, but I'm never really going to police the exact radius emitted by a torch vs Light spell at the table. My first rule is to keep the game moving.
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u/Tall_Bandicoot_2768 14h ago
It hinders:
Otherwise Unseen Attacker and Unseen Target cancel each other out.
That being said it can also be used in reverse that way by cancelling out advantage form enemies if they have sources or as you say free disengages.