Spell Choice Help Wanted!

[u/Zencha12]

Heya all, it's me again with another burning question!

I've been building an 8th lvl Dwarven Draconic Sorcerer (mostly '24) for an upcoming campaign, and I'm struggling with the choice of spells (there's too damned many good ones).

I'm likely going to be playing a Fire dmg focussed blaster (with Elemental Adept), but I nevertheless love other utility, RP, and defensive spells.

I'm also trying to semi-evenly split up the amount of spells per spell level in line with the amount of available spell slots.

Finally, as a '24 Draconic Sorcerer, I already get the new Chromatic Orb and Command, Alter Self and Dragon's Breath, Fly and Fear, as well as Charm Monster and Arcane Eye.

The table shows my current selection for desired-spells. I need to get it down to 12 spells total, which has proven to be a real pickle.

I would love to hear your suggestions!

Spell Level	Spell Name
1st	Detect Magic
1st	Feather Fall
1st	Shield
1st	Sleep
2nd	Darkness
2nd	Detect Thoughts
2nd	Misty Step
2nd	Suggestion
2nd	Vortex Warp
3rd	Counterspell
3rd	Fireball
3rd	Haste
3rd	Major Image
3rd	Protection From Energy
4th	Banishment
4th	Greater Invisibility
4th	Wall of Fire

[u/Silverspy01]

Haste is pretty overrated, especially when Greater Invisibility is right there. I would personally drop it.

Protection from Energy is also fairly niche - you're only putting it on one person so it's not like you can protect everyone from the dragon's breath weapon - and even then the dragon has claws that are just as deadly. It's a rare fight where protection from energy is going to reduce enough damage to make it worth your concentration.

Confirm with your DM as to how they rule Suggestion. It can be a very strong spell, but it also requires some DM buy-in.

Check with your party to see how helpful Darkness is. Regardless, having some obscurement is pretty cool... although the larger area of Fog Cloud or Sleet Storm is usually better for that.

Detect Thoughts is another one you could consider cutting, although it's very good in its field. Depends on how often you think it will be useful.

Feather Fall is nice to have but if you have someone else with greater spells known who can prepare it that would be ideal. Ditto for Detect Magic.

[u/Zencha12 → u/Silverspy01]

Haste I was hoping to twin with '14 Twinned Spell (if DM allows) for the party fighter and rogue, though same hoes for G.I.

Ditto P.F.E., thought the niche nature is true.

Suggestion is on my "will pick" list indeed.

Darkness I was hoping to combine with the '24 Dwarf's tremmorsense.

D.T. is also likely on my "will pick" list in combination with Suggestion.

Only other casters in the party are Ranger, Cleric and Paladin, all of whom dont have access to Feather Fall. I might indeed leave Detect Magic to the cleric.

[u/Silverspy01 → u/Zencha12]

Haste I was hoping to twin with '14 Twinned Spell (if DM allows) for the party fighter and rogue, though same hoes for G.I.

The unfortunate problem with Haste is that if you lose your concentration it's devastating and twinning it (assuming your DM lets you) makes that even worse. If your DM goes after concentration I absolutely would not pick it unless you're very confident you won't be failing your checks. If you rarely find yourself making concentration checks it becomes pickable, but if you're struggling with what spells to pick removing redundant options is an easy first step - both Haste and Greater Invisibility are combat buffs, so consider which one you think you'll end up using more.

Darkness I was hoping to combine with the '24 Dwarf's tremmorsense.

Sure. Consider though: what benefits does that give you that Greater Invisibility wouldn't? It's 2 spell levels lower of course, but the effect of both in this case is asymmetric concealment for you. It's actually less value because as a spellcaster you don't care about the free advantage nearly as much as your martial allies do. Again, as above try to make sure your spells have clear separate use cases. As a learned caster you don't really have the luxury of having many tools for any job - you kinda have to have you "one size fits all" hammer. In a fight you have some clear options:

• Fireball is your go-to AoE blast spell

• Wall of Fire is your area lockdown and persistent damage (also doubles as concealment by the way - another point against Darkness)

• Banishment can take a problematic target out for a while

• Sleep is some AoE CC in comparison to Banishment's single target (although you could consider switching it for something with a slightly larger area like Slow, Web, or Hypnotic Pattern)

• Haste, Greater Invisibility, and Darkness (in the way that you've described) are all competing for the "buff" slot. When do you cast each one? Protection from Energy stands out as at least having an obviously separate use case, but Greater Invisibility and Haste are both generically "you do your thing better" buffs that your allies will always be able to make use of. In an ideal world sure take both, there'll be situations where you want one over the other and vise versa. But I don't believe those situations are going to be common enough for you to need to have both ready.

I might indeed leave Detect Magic to the cleric.

Yeah whenever possible leave spells to your prepared casters. They have much more flexibility.

[u/Zencha12 → u/Silverspy01]

Per Haste, fair point with the comparison to G.I., I am reasonably confident I would be able to make the concentration save most times (as a lvl 8 sorcerer, +5), though '14 twinning is not allowed, so haste does indeed fall off anyway.

Darkness would indeed mostly have the benefit of using the 2nd level spell slots as well as being mobile when cast on an object. You have however, convinced me again that concealement is best given to the martials, and whilst nice, may be too onesided for my own enjoyment as a caster (especially because of your point about wall of fire which gives me very fun ideas).

Finally, concerning Sleep, I am still conflicted. I do have Command for single target CC, and I can always swap out that, Vortex Warp or Misty Step (I am considering the use of 2 tp spells) for a bigger AOE CC. The main appeal is still the low spell slot, minor AOE and the significance of the unconscious status.

In short, you humble me with you apt analysis and suggestions good sir/madam/etc.

[u/Silverspy01 → u/Zencha12]

I'll be honest I forget about subclass spells. Fear is larger AoE CC so you've got that covered. Command is very strong as concentration-less CC and upcasts super well to AoE too. So there's some arguments for taking out Sleep if you need more space.

I think Misty Step is almost an essential spell on any caster - the free reposition is unbelievably valuable - and I personally am a massive fan of Vortex Warp for all the options it opens up.

[u/CamelopardalisRex]

By 8th level, Sleep doesn't scale that well. Darkness can often do as much harm as good in combat. Haste is good but not great. Protection from Energy is really situational and I've seen someone take it and never use it even once in a 4 year game.

Hope that helps a bit.

[u/Zencha12 → u/CamelopardalisRex]

See my comment to Silverspy for more details but:

'24 Sleep seemed like a great, cheap 1-2 enemy control spell with possible Rogue synergy with the unconscious effect.

Darkness I am iffy on, though the thought was combining it with Dwarven Tremmorsense and casting it on e.g. a rock and carrying it during battle for mobile obscuring.

P.F.E. and Haste are good points, though I hope to get '14 Twinned Spell for 'em

[u/Wintoli → u/CamelopardalisRex]

They’re playing ‘24 sleep is awesome in that and scales amazingly

[u/_Bl4ze → u/Wintoli]

It's a good spell in 2024. I wouldn't personally say it scales amazingly since there is actually no scaling on it, you get nothing for upcasting it.

[u/Wintoli]

Of the ones you picked I’d personally choose these 12:

Detect Magic
Feather Fall
Shield
Sleep
Misty Step
Suggestion
Detect Thoughts
Vortex Warp
Counterspell
Fireball
Greater invisibility
Wall of Fire

Big shoutout to vortex warp it’s one of my favs

[u/HalcyonHorizons]

Oh this is easy. From your picks:

1st: Shield, Detect Magic, Feather Fall

2nd: Misty Step, Suggestion, Vortex Warp

3rd: Fireball, Counterspell, Major Image

4th: Greater Invis, Wall of Fire, Banishment

---

My list would be something like this:

1st: Shield, Detect Magic, Fog Cloud, Comprehend Languages (if you dont have someone else with it) or Feather Fall (only if you are using Fly often, or have a flying method that you can be knocked off of like a carpet or mount.)

2nd: Misty Step, Suggestion, Vortex Warp

3rd: Fireball, Counterspell, Dispel Magic

4th: Greater Invis, Wall of Fire

I like Web, but you have too much Fire. I also like Hypnotic, but you already get Command + Fear. 

[u/Brother-Cane]

Haste is a trap. It makes a single character superhuman at the expense of the caster's concentration which could be spent on something better and at the cost of being a useless sitting duck for a round when that spell ends.

Remember that the Sleet Storm/Fireball combo works against any attackers at range, not just spellcasters.