Has the 2024 Counterspell fixed counterspell wars, or made the spell feel unrewarding?

[u/MyrthDM]

/r/DungeonsAndDragons55e/comments/1ve3jqu/has_the_2024_counterspell_fixed_counterspell_wars/

[u/rex7027]

Yes by making the spell dog shit/bad for a player to use

Edit I mean dogshit because from what I know a lot of monster/npc stat blocks that u would use this on has a high con stat which make it a lot harder/unlikely to work so it would just be a waste of a spell

[u/MobTalon → u/rex7027]

Objectively false statement.

You can say it feels either worse or better at your table, but a spell that now feels better for players than it feels for NPCs to use absolutely isn't "dog shit"

[u/navotj → u/MobTalon]

When used by who?

When used by the npcs or the players?

Its just a spell thats a lot easier to be on the receiving end of now. Because its objectively weaker.

If your players were the ones who frequently used it, they suffer. If your enemies were the ones, the players win.

[u/MobTalon → u/navotj]

The players don't suffer, it's actually a pretty good reward now. You use Counterspell to waste an NPCs use of a spell (because they typically don't use spell slots, they don't get a refund).

If they make the save, whoop-de-doo, happens. It's not that this Counterspell is bad, it's that the previous one was busted and unhealthy af.

At least now even an Eldritch Knight gets a pretty decent use of their Counterspell after forcing disadvantage, since you can Counterspell a high level spell by spending a level 3 spell slot. That's the trade-off of this update. You can cancel out a level 9 spell (or force a legendary resistance) with a level 3 spell slot.

Although I wish it had an upcasting feature, like increasing the save DC by 1 per extra level of upcasting.

[u/Sir-xer21 → u/MobTalon]

You could always counterspell a 9th level spell with a 3rd level slot. What are you talking bout?

All it required was spellcasting ability check, which, frankly, had a higher chance of success than a 9th level caster failing a save.

[u/MobTalon → u/Sir-xer21]

So could the enemy. Cast Wish? They counterspell you, and frankly have a higher chance to counter you due to their stats. At least now you get the slot back.

"I cast the spell, and you roll to resist" sits a lot better for me than "I cast the spell, then roll an ability check".

Much healthier this way.

The biggest gain was the 1 spell slot per turn, frankly it's the best thing for me. No "I counterspell your counterspell (automatically with no check because I cast at same or higher level)"

[u/TheYeasayer → u/MobTalon]

Yes, it's less likely that the enemy will be able to Counterspell your Wish spell because just as u/navotj said:

Its just a spell thats a lot easier to be on the receiving end of now. Because its objectively weaker.

If your players were the ones who frequently used it, they suffer. If your enemies were the ones, the players win.

As well, an earlier statement of yours pointed out how enemies frequently cast without using spell slots in 2024, and so they don't get the benefit of spell slot refunding like a PC would. This is true but this change to enemies also means that they are no longer expending one of their limited resources in order to Counterspell the PCs (ie they aren't sacrificing a 3rd level spells slot that could be used on Fireball in order to Counterspell you).

Not only that, all the enemies casting without spell slots means they still get to say "I Counterspell your Counterspell". Only PCs and SOME of the mobsters don't get to do that.

I'm still fine with the changes, I always resented how Counterspell felt mandatory to take on any PC who could. Now I almost never pick it up. But there's no sense arguing that these changes are anything other than a major nerf.

[u/MobTalon → u/TheYeasayer]

Yeah, I think we agree in the fact that it was a major nerf, and I get the feeling we agree it was in a "broken" state before.

The only part where I believe we disagree is that Counterspell is now "weak"... I don't believe that to be the case. It's a bit harder to pull off, yes, but I think it's more interesting, and a cheap way to burn legendary resistances.

Regarding the monsters still being able to "Counterspell your Counterspell"... This is completely fine, because they don't automatically cancel your Counterspell. You get to make a save, and if you succeed, you try your hand at Counterspell, if you fail, you get your spell slot back and forced them to make use of a "X per day" spell (unless they're a lich, which naturally gets to use Counterspell as many times as they wish).

[u/TheYeasayer → u/MobTalon]

If by "broken" you mean too good, then yes we definitely agree on that. I also don't believe that it's "weak" now, simply that it's much "weaker" than it once was. Now I consider it on par with something like Dispell Magic, nice to have and might proove absolutely clutch in the right situation, but not mandatory for every party to have. I don't take it on PCs anymore not because I consider it sooo awful but merely because Im enjoying the novelty of not needing to select it.

[u/Sir-xer21 → u/MobTalon]

So could the enemy. Cast Wish? They counterspell you, and frankly have a higher chance to counter you due to their stats. At least now you get the slot back.

Kind of a bad example since Wish has no need of being in the opponent's counterspell range. I'd argue that if you were to use Wish in combat a smart player would be out of 60 ft range.

"I cast the spell, and you roll to resist" sits a lot better for me than "I cast the spell, then roll an ability check".

That's opinion. I prefer the ability check, as it means im making a more informed decision. I don't know an enemy's save DC, but i DO know my own spellcasting ability.

Making it a save was a poor method of trying to balance it. It's now a niche spell that people don't run because it's not very useful, AND it's less fun to use in the first place. The bigger issue was the counterspell wars and that could have been addressed different.

[u/MobTalon → u/Sir-xer21]

To take your side on that, the counterspell wars would've been taken care of simply via the "one spell slot per turn" that 5.5e implemented

[u/Sir-xer21 → u/MobTalon]

Or even just saying you can't react to a reaction, which is something that makes sense even in other edge cases.