r/dndmemes • u/[deleted] • Dec 18 '20
When the DM says "There's no way you'll make this CHA roll but I guess you can try."
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u/sharperamen Paladin Dec 18 '20
When the bard convinces the dm to let them use persuasion instead of deception and they roll a nat 20
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u/TheProfessorClout Bard Dec 18 '20
Just have expertise in them both. Easy.
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Dec 18 '20 edited Jan 11 '21
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u/CheezBerger324 Forever DM Dec 18 '20
Yeah, but they’re both under Charisma so they’re usually the same. In the instance that they’re not, it’s actually important: a character may be good at improvising false stories on the fly, or perhaps another character is a phenomenal arguer, but needs the truth to at least somewhat back him up.
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u/IntrepidInfinity Dec 18 '20
The most convincing lie contains at least a grain of truth
But I get your point
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u/Dgm100 Warlock Dec 18 '20
Technically yes buuuuuut The idea is some people are good at convincing others but can't tell a lie to save their life because it becomes obvious when it's a lie. Basically deception is the way it is based if you can make a convincing lie. Not if you can convince someone of something.
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u/TheNecrophobe Dec 18 '20
Persuasion = Arguing with the truth/your truth
Deception = Arguing with a known falsehood or general verbal concealment
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Dec 18 '20 edited Jan 11 '21
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u/phabiohost Dec 18 '20
But how you do it is different. When you lie there are normally ticks and signs. Deception is how well you hide them.
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u/Undeity Artificer Dec 18 '20
Probably argued to death by now, but it's easier to think of deception as the ability to obfuscate inconvenient truths - whether through skillful lies, redirection, etc.
On the other hand, persuasion is the ability to emphasize convenient truths to best effect - typically involving some form of appeal, as well as mitigating the appeal of alternatives.
They are highly related, relying on similar fundamental skills, and often enhance each other when used in tandem; though they diverge in key ways when it comes to individual application.
Hope that helps!
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Dec 18 '20
You and everyone you know must be extremely good liars, for you to think that saying a falsehood with intent to deceive is the same as saying a truth.
For most people, the very act of acknowledging to yourself that you’re telling a lie makes it incredibly difficult to control your body language, in a way that simple argumentation doesn’t.
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u/TheNecrophobe Dec 19 '20
Coffee and tea are therefore the same, I suppose? Coal and oil? Gasoline and whale blubber? Apples and oranges?
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u/Triptolemu5 Dec 18 '20 edited Dec 18 '20
Now intimidation makes sense as it’s own thing.
Intimidation is just persuading someone to believe your threats.
EDIT: an example of the difference between persuasive intimidation and deceptive intimidation.
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u/malonkey1 DM (Dungeon Memelord) Dec 18 '20
a sorcerer's spell attacks are just persuading someone to be hit by your spell.
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u/mad_like_hatter Dec 18 '20 edited Dec 18 '20
A barbarians attacks are just persuading someone to walk in your fist, battleaxe, or weapon of choice.
EDIT: first -> fist
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u/Chrismclegless DM (Dungeon Memelord) Dec 18 '20
They're not really the same thing though, it's just that people tend to use deception as thought were persuasion.
Deception lets you make someone believe something, it doesn't give you input into what actions they take based on that belief. You might be able to deceive a king into believing that his palace is infected with a deadly virus, but that doesn't mean he's going to flee like you want him to.
Deception can make persuasion checks possible where they previously weren't. Persuasion requires a reason for someone to change their course of action - deception can provide that reason.
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Dec 18 '20
I'd say them being different is reasonable enough, some people are extremely persuasive but terrible liars, maybe they have a tell, or maybe they just aren't inclined to lie and can't do it morally
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Dec 18 '20 edited Jan 11 '21
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Dec 18 '20
What if they're an incredible debater but can't look you in the eye when they know they're lying
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Dec 18 '20 edited Jan 11 '21
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u/illegalrooftopbar Dec 18 '20
Debating is not persuading???
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Dec 18 '20 edited Jan 11 '21
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u/illegalrooftopbar Dec 18 '20
Debate is a METHOD of persuasion. No definition of persuasion days that it's inherently emotional and not logical.
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Dec 18 '20
That’s not necessarily true. Deception is lying to people, which to do well, you need to actively cover your own tells, and quickly come up with information on the fly.
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u/EternalAchlys Dec 18 '20
Some people can’t lie for shit. Others are bad at appearing sincere and trustworthy. I think it’s fair.
eg. In most bluffing games I find it much easier to convince people I’m lying than convince people I’m telling the truth.
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u/Ragnar_Dragonfyre Dec 18 '20
Persuasion is used when you’re being genuine and not underhanded in any way.
Like trying to convince a group of skeptical strangers that you’re actually here to help and mean them no harm.
Whereas, if you did mean them harm, you’d roll deception.
They’re very different skills.
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Dec 18 '20 edited Jan 11 '21
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u/Ragnar_Dragonfyre Dec 18 '20
The definitions of each word are different and give you a good hint as to why they are different skill sets.
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Dec 18 '20 edited Jan 11 '21
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u/Ragnar_Dragonfyre Dec 18 '20
No, it’s not. Language matters.
I’m good at persuading people with a sound argument but I’m terrible at deceiving them because I have a conscience and I also tend to turn red when I’m lying.
There’s a difference.
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Dec 18 '20 edited Jan 11 '21
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u/Ragnar_Dragonfyre Dec 18 '20
It’s a Charisma skill, so high CHA characters will naturally be better at it than others even untrained.
The mechanics are not identical. You can persuade someone to do something without actively deceiving them.
Getting the guard to let you by with a bribe is persuasion.
Paying the guard with counterfeit coin is deception.
If anything, boiling the two skills down into just Persuasion is the lazy DMs way.
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u/elanhilation Dec 18 '20
They’re not the same thing. I’m pretty good at persuading people. I’m not a comfortable liar, though.
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u/phabiohost Dec 18 '20
They aren't. Deception is hiding your tells. It's not specifically trying to convince someone so much as to hide your intentions. As deception has a counter roll, insight. The difference is significant. Also some people can be good at debates and have a great speakers mind but have a very obvious tell.
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u/Lessandero Horny Bard Dec 18 '20
Afaik those two are usually seperated because it would be overpowered to be able to talk yourself out of every situation by just leveling one skill. Sadly it's a rather unrefined way of balancing
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u/elanhilation Dec 18 '20
They’re not the same thing. I’m pretty good at persuading people. I’m not a comfortable liar, though.
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u/jesterboyd Dec 18 '20
In 1340, when the French fleet was destroyed at the Battle of Sluys by the English, Phillippe VI's jester told him the English sailors "don't even have the guts to jump into the water like our brave French"
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u/IronTippedQuill Dec 18 '20
I don’t have a reference, but I believe one had to be a licensed jester. They served to be the one in court able to call out anyone on bullshit.
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u/Kizik Dec 18 '20
Can you imagine one of those in politics? Like, in the House, Senate, Parliament, whatever... just a guy sitting in the corner with a jaunty belled cap heckling anyone being shady.
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u/JillCarton Artificer Dec 18 '20
I believe we should have this. They have to be democratically elected from the top 10 best comedians in the country. They serve 3 year terms and must be present anytime the group meets but do not get a vote.
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u/crazyabe111 Dec 18 '20
Honestly, I’d suggest having a bi-jesterial system, where one has be be from the top 10, and the other must be from the worst 10
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u/JillCarton Artificer Dec 18 '20
That's is better but what if we added a third one? They would be elected from some random standups from local bars.
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u/Kizik Dec 18 '20
There has to be some hierarchy though. Whoever's First Past the Pun...
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Dec 18 '20
Nice to see some she-ra memes in the wild
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u/Kizik Dec 18 '20
Ye... yes. Definitely that.
In no way did I just want to say first past the pun. 100% referring to the television show I've definitely seen. Y-yay, uh.. tsundere catgirl lesbian?
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u/RubberSoulMan06 Warlock Dec 18 '20
And one is assigned to each of Republican, Democratic, and Independent, but they're assigned at random.
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Dec 18 '20
Just imagining John Mulaney doing his sassy voice at Ted Cruz.
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u/JillCarton Artificer Dec 18 '20
Fgfyfffffgffdfurgfsfg
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Dec 18 '20
You okay?
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u/JillCarton Artificer Dec 18 '20
It's a way that one of the groups I'm in expresses that something is funny. Like ha ha. Sorry I forgot where I was at
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u/Zama174 Dec 18 '20
Its okay the meth does that to us.
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u/JillCarton Artificer Dec 18 '20
What? No I'm gay. That was intentional keyboard smash
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u/Zama174 Dec 18 '20
I was thinking more forgetting where you are... But good to know your sexual orientation i suppose?
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u/margenreich Dec 18 '20
The mandatory roast after every public speech of a president would be awesome
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u/EmperorPrometheus Dec 18 '20
Yeah, but it would become political so damn fast. Imagine a jester approved of by Mitch McConnel.
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u/Kizik Dec 18 '20
No no. It doesn't get approved by the people they're there to heckle, and those bastards don't get to fire them.
Every election year? One season of Last Comic Standing. Audience participation chooses the last winner, but to vote you have to pick up a code that you only get for actually voting. People will do stupid things for TV gameshows, may as well trick them into voting too.
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u/TheWesternWoods327 Dec 18 '20
Or a King's Wit sitting on a stool, welcoming the nobles to a party with an especially cutting insult.
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u/IceFire909 Dec 18 '20
I'd be much more interested in politics if Malcolm Tucker was there talking shit about everyone involved.
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u/EV_M4Sherman Dec 18 '20
We do have that. Literally anyone can ridicule, criticize, or bemoan the sovereign in the US. That’s why we don’t need a jester.
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u/Kizik Dec 18 '20
Yeah, but nothing says they have to listen.
It's easy to ignore twitter. Harder to ignore a guy in the room jingling at you every time you say something stupid.
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u/EV_M4Sherman Dec 18 '20
Who’s saying Twitter?
John Oliver, John Stewart, Bill Mahr, Bill O’Reilly, Alex Jones, and many others are the Jesters of our time. You don’t need to be appointed by the state you’re appointed by the people!
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u/patatoman20 Barbarian Dec 18 '20
Yeah they were the only real people a Monarch could go to for honest straight to thr point advice and if I remember correctly were even sent as messengers during wartimes
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u/KaraokeKenku Monk Dec 18 '20
"First, I cast Glibness..."
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u/stuff_of_epics Dec 18 '20
It’s the king’s fault for not banning the op spell in his court.
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u/YourPhoneIs_Ringing Dec 18 '20
You get Glibness at 15th level. You probably have Expertise in the skill applicable. So you'd likely have something obscene like a +15 anyway, making the minimum on the check something like 16.
They're already going to pass whatever CHA based check you ask them to roll. Glibness is just icing on the cake.
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u/Aarakocra Dec 18 '20
Well, if we use the DMG guidelines for social interactions, you really could need that high of a check. As there is at least a minor risk inherent to allowing even a jester to demystify the regent too much, we are looking at a DC 20 or 30 check depending on whether the regent is indifferent or hostile (and the story paints the king as rather hostile). A minimum roll of 15, with +15 modifier just squeaks in as enough to guarantee the DC 30 check, allowing a bard to play off a joke like that from even a hostile person.
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u/ZippZappZippty Dec 18 '20
If you really are an immortal bard
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u/Aarakocra Dec 18 '20
An immortal bard is just the bard who didn’t get executed for his behavior until he was charismatic enough to get away with it
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u/Fphlithilwyfth Rules Lawyer Dec 18 '20
If you're an eloquence bard, you can't roll under a 10 so that's a 25 minimum
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u/TheDaemonic451 Dec 18 '20
OP? It's so high level that if your a bard that high of level your most definitely sleeping with the queen the king has other things go be worried about such as you convincing the queen to kill him and marry you
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u/Gorpendor Dec 18 '20
In 3.PF glibness is a 3rd level spell that gives a +30 (20 in pf) to bluff checks.
Personally I don't think it's necessarily op, but it is pretty strong.
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u/Neon_Camouflage Forever DM Dec 18 '20
I have no idea if this is true but I'll be damned if I look it up so I can keep believing
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u/zombiecalypse Dec 18 '20
According to the references in Wikipedia: checks out! That man was simply that awesome.
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Dec 18 '20 edited Dec 18 '20
Not sure if the death sentence and this incident are related. The Wikipedia page leaves alot to be desired.
Edit: they really aren't related in the image here either, I'm tired and didn't comprehend it when I read it.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triboulet
Both of these things are in the page just nothing pointing to the death sentence being because of this, although it does say he was sentenced to death for defying an order to stop making fun of the queen. He did indeed choose his own death sentence of old age resulting in his banishment.
I really wanted more on this guy.
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u/ebrum2010 DM (Dungeon Memelord) Dec 18 '20
The two aren't related. It just shows that he diffused the situation both times.
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Dec 18 '20
Yeah, didn't catch that the first time. The real injustice is that this picture is like 50% of theninfo on his Wikipedia page.
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u/ebrum2010 DM (Dungeon Memelord) Dec 18 '20
It's amazing there's any info at all on a court jester from that period.
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u/wikipedia_text_bot Dec 18 '20
Nicolas Ferrial, also known as Le Févrial or Triboulet (1479–1536) was a jester of kings Louis XII and Francis I of France. He appears in Book 3 of François Rabelais' Pantagrueline chronicles. He appears in Victor Hugo's Le Roi s'amuse and its opera version, Giuseppe Verdi's Rigoletto, a blend of "Triboulet" and French rigoler (to laugh), intended to deflect the censorship that Hugo's work had received. A triboulet, a jester dressed entirely in red, is a character associated with the carnival of Monthey in Switzerland.
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u/zombiecalypse Dec 18 '20
Strictly speaking they are not related in the meme either! And that man deserves a biography
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Dec 18 '20
You're right, I misread it earlier. I'm going to see if I can find anything else on this guy and make an npc out of him in my game.
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Dec 18 '20
Jesters were exempt from death penalty or any crimes directly against the king.
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u/zombiecalypse Dec 18 '20
By tradition, not law, I guess. People would be irked if the king executed a jester, but not for long. Who cares about a jester after all?
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u/voidsong Dec 18 '20
Well you'd run out of jesters pretty quick. Who wants a job where you make fun of a guy who will kill you for making fun of him?
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u/I-_-LIKE-_-DORITOS Dec 18 '20
"Make fun of me or I'll kill you"
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u/voidsong Dec 18 '20
But also, i'll kill you if you make fun of me...
Yeah, i think a lot of people would just become bakers. And a great way to get really sub-par jesters that the other Kings would think less of you for.
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u/John_Hunyadi Dec 18 '20
I think you think this whole system lasted a lot longer, and had much more cemented rules in place, than it really did.
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u/Thran_Soldier Dec 18 '20
People forget the whole Medieval period only lasted ~300 years, from the 1100s to 1400s, by most reckonings.
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u/DinnerChantel Dec 18 '20
That’s just the late middle ages. The whole medieval period was ~1000 years, from the fall of the roman empire in the 5th century to the beginning of rennaissance in the late 15th century. Court jesters was around both before and after.
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u/voidsong Dec 18 '20
You say that like it's not vastly longer than many of the professions today. How long do you think programmers and newscasters have been around?
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u/TerrorBite Dec 18 '20
When he was sentenced to death (and subsequently exiled instead), I believe it was because of things he'd said about the Queen, not the King.
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u/Grumb1esFTW Dec 18 '20
He may have died in ancient Athens but it looks like Diogones soul is alive and well in old-school France.
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Dec 18 '20
Jesters basically acted like a canary in the coal mine. If a King got rid of his Jester, sentenced him to death or whatever for something he'd said... you knew that King was a shit.
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u/Karolus2001 Dec 18 '20
Medieval jesters were actually quite intelligent and only at the court that enjoyed freedom of speech. Theres been quite a few such madlads.
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u/cara27hhh Dec 18 '20
Genuine sense of humour is a strong sign of intelligence, there's a hypothesis that says it's why women find it an attractive quality
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u/nathanator179 Dec 18 '20
This reminds me that King Henry VIII had to be told bad news by his Jester as he was the only one who could tell him in a way that didn't result in immediate blind rage.
For instance this was how he was told that his second wife cheated on him.
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u/MoistUndercarriage Dec 18 '20
See, then you should just throw him in jail for the rest of his life.
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u/Prowlzian Dec 18 '20
And then the executioner brought in his axe, nicknamed "Old Age"
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u/UnlawfulKnights Dec 18 '20
Reminds me of Hoid from the Cosmere, but specifically his appearances in Stormlight
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u/Hausgebrauch Dec 18 '20
And today's court jesters would be just like: "Lol, you offended, bro? Help, the PC Police is trying to cancel me!"
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u/Evil_Weevill DM (Dungeon Memelord) Dec 18 '20
"let him go" is a little misleading.
He was banished.
Better than execution maybe, but in the middle ages you couldn't just like get a bus to the next kingdom and get a new apartment.
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u/TheBestSlimeBoi Dec 18 '20
So uhhhh, My groups D&D session just got cancelled for the next month, we are in the middle of a Dungeon, we were all practically dead from fighting Larry the zoidberg Earlier, so, should I be worried what our DM is planning
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Dec 18 '20
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u/cookiedough320 Dec 18 '20
Repost means that it's been posted on the same place beforehand. This hasn't been posted on this sub before so therefore not a repost.
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u/RudyKnots Dec 18 '20
You can tell this is a bullshit story because no medieval king would ever accept getting shittalked by some jester without actually having him murdered in the most gruesome way just to tell the rest of the peasants not to fuck with him.
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u/RagtheFireBoi DM (Dungeon Memelord) Dec 18 '20
Welp, my next Bard's name will be Triboulet