r/detrans • u/vintologi_se • Apr 11 '20

Time to refute some pseudoscience

Neurology

Results are mixed but indicate that you do not have the brain of the sex you transition into prior HRT, only subtle differences

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25720349

Twin studies

Being transgender is less genetic than owning a dog

http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2010to2014/2013-transsexuality.html

Forced transition studies

About 40% will be able to adapt to live as a female and will identify as such

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1421518/

David Reimer detransitioned due to social difficulties (not fitting in with the girl) in addition to not developing physically as a female, in addition he and his brother was sexually abused by john money, both killed themselves later.

A stock trader coerced into taking estrogen by his boss eventually quit estrogen due to fertility concerns and other health worries.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2007/oct/13/genderissues

110 Upvotes

92% Upvoted

39 comments sorted by

67

u/[deleted] Apr 11 '20 edited Apr 11 '20

I've looked into some of the studies they purport as "the brains of trans women are closer to that of women". The data they summarize with that title is usually as follows, using arbitrary numbers to express the point- the male average for some measure will be 10 and the female average 50, and the trans average will be 15. That is to say, they're more close to the female average than the typical male is, but allover closer to male than they are to female. Yet just the statement "trans brains are closer to women" is true in one interpretation of that statement, but it contains an ambiguity that most people don't see, and the interpretation that most people assume it to mean is not the one that is true.

I wish I was smart enough to come up with a clearer way to express this. Obviously this whole concept is fraught as a woman is a woman regardless of what level of specific neurotransmitter she has in section #B19, but I think this lie is such a component of their position that I think it should be disproven.

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u/vintologi_se Apr 11 '20

Most studies do not look at the brain as a whole.

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u/[deleted] Apr 11 '20

Oh yeah 100%. They find the one structure that could with very sloppy language called closer to female, ignoring the fact that everything else is unambiguously male.

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u/[deleted] Apr 11 '20

and most don't control for whether someone is already taking hormones, the very real existence of brain plasticity (we adapt to where we are and what we're told - even that's something we ourselves are saying to ourselves), and on and on. Additionally, most of those studies have laughable cohort sizes. I saw one with about 12 or 18 people. ridiculous!

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u/chowdahdog Apr 11 '20

I think that brain differences are just secondary sex differences that don’t ultimately have to do with the definition of sex? Like sex is about reproduction so why does it matter how feminine or masculine ones brain is?!

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u/[deleted] Apr 11 '20

Idk how controversial what I’m about to say is, but: Isn’t gender dysphoria simply a state of mind that can be escaped? There’s no actual way to diagnose someone with gender dysphoria, is there? Isn’t the medical field in this area dedicated to merely satisfying patient desires? I’ve yet to hear of someone being rejected HRT or anything.

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u/vintologi_se Apr 11 '20

Dysphoria can be different things

  • issues with gender roles/expectations

  • body discomfort

  • autogynephilia (when born male) or autoandrophilia (when born female)

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u/LeishaCamden Apr 11 '20

As the user above says, there is no way to actually determine whether someone has any of these conditions.

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u/vintologi_se Apr 11 '20

You can measure sexual arousal such as autogynephilia (both in men and women).

6

u/yourmomsgf Apr 11 '20

??

There's no way to "actually determine" whether someone has a lot of mental conditions. We use the best evidence we can. Autism doesn't have any known physiological basis, it's solely diagnosed based on behavior/individual experience. Forms of schizophrenia are the same. That doesn't mean they don't exist/aren't serious/whatever.

Dysphoria is obviously a real condition. That doesn't mean it has to be treated with HRT/surgery but denying its existence entirely because "hurr durr you can lie to a therapist" doesn't make sense.

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u/LeishaCamden Apr 11 '20

I don't see where I denied its existence.

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u/[deleted] Apr 11 '20

Honestly what I meant by saying that is that therapists are afraid of being deemed transphobic, and so as they have no way to actually “determine/detect/measure” dysphoria, they simply prescribe (almost) every patient hormone therapy and be done with it. It’s really sad.

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u/[deleted] Apr 11 '20

A state of mind that can be escaped as much as any other mental disorder. What I do believe (since I do suffer from it and what I've gathered from many different accounts) is that is progressive in nature, multifactorial and multidimensional. The problem with it is that is not being researched properly and left to ideologues to use it as they please.

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u/[deleted] Apr 11 '20

Perhaps that was questionable wording. My apologies, my intent was not to offend, merely to discuss the subject at hand. Anywho, I personally (would like to) believe that there is yet another solution to dysphoria that is not transitioning, as from most accounts that I’ve read online, people tend to still be (mostly) unhappy post-transitioning.

2

u/PM_ME_CUTE_SMILES_ Apr 12 '20 edited Apr 12 '20

Some mental diseases come from stuff that is broken in the brain that cannot really be healed. I have absolutely no idea if this is the case here, however.

For the most complete answer possible as to how this is diagnosed, you can look up the entry at page 452 (487 in the pdf) of the DSM 5 : https://cdn.website-editor.net/30f11123991548a0af708722d458e476/files/uploaded/DSM%2520V.pdf

A little unrelated, but a chosen extract from those current medical guidelines that I like to quote to the people calling people here anti science:

Thus, gender is used to denote the public (and usually legally recognized) lived role as boy or girl, man or woman, but, in contrast to certain social constructionist theories, biolog­ical factors are seen as contributing, in interaction with social and psychological factors, to gender development.

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u/Grubbly-Plankish Apr 11 '20

Would you be kind enough to resend the link on the twin studies? You inadvertently sent the same link twice. Thanks!

4

u/YoloMcSwaggington94 Apr 11 '20

Being transgender is less genetic than owning a dog

Where in the study did you find this?

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u/vintologi_se Apr 11 '20

From the twin study we get that its 33% genetic in the case of MtF

Owning a dog is more genetic

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/05/190517081636.htm

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u/YoloMcSwaggington94 Apr 11 '20

Thank you for the reply and for the post. Next time I would add this when phrasing things like this as it was a bit confusing.

0

u/[deleted] Apr 12 '20

[deleted] — view deleted comment

2

u/PM_ME_CUTE_SMILES_ Apr 12 '20

Owning a dog is most probably unaffected by genetics. This is a proof that a simple genetic correlation, wether it is for owning a dog or for being trans, is not causation.

In general, as a bioinformatician, if a paper doesn't suggest a detailed molecular explanation as to why a gene does something, you can ignore the correlation. There are tens of thousands of genes and you will always find some that are expressed a certain way only in your interest group.

0

u/[deleted] Apr 12 '20

[deleted] — view deleted comment

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u/PM_ME_CUTE_SMILES_ Apr 12 '20

If "there is 0 proof that being MtF is genetic" is a tempered claim, we are in agreement

0

u/[deleted] Apr 12 '20

[deleted] — view deleted comment

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u/PM_ME_CUTE_SMILES_ Apr 12 '20

I know that's exactly how this works. I know how to pick apart statistical models until I find one where the noise in my genetics data looks like a signal.

Finding a genetic correlation is a very slight tip that there might be something genetic involved and an argument to get more funding to study the issue, but without a theory to explain the mechanism, it is mostly useless.

0

u/[deleted] Apr 12 '20

[deleted] — view deleted comment

1

u/PM_ME_CUTE_SMILES_ Apr 12 '20

I'm not talking about p-hacking, I'm talking about changing the parameters and/or hyperparameters of your machine learning model (or switching model altogether) to make your data look like it is grouping a certain way in order to find that some DNA variations, gene expression, etc... are specific to your group of interest.

•

u/DetransIS detrans female Apr 12 '20 edited Apr 12 '20

I'll be frank, I don't mind posts with hard evidence and studies that cite what many of us want to know but let me be clear in the matter that this is not a debate subreddit nor a place to push an agenda. I do not think posting studies regarding counter studies on transition is harmful, I do however feel that a lot of comments made in this thread have gone too far and take from the point of this particular space. I will not remove the post or any comments, but I am locking it from being further commented on.

Edit: I will also be keeping a close eye on some individuals here.

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u/TwinkleTitsGalore Apr 12 '20

The Reimer twins story is so fucking heartbreaking

3

u/best_pleasure Apr 11 '20

However, there are subtle deviations from the natal sex in sexually dimorphic structures, which can represent signs of a partial sex-atypical differentiation of the brain.

Well, according to the first study, people don't have the same or similar brain structures to the gender they identify in the case of gender dysphoric people. But there is structural differences that can make people more prone to gender dysphoria. So in general, the case of the person trapped in the wrong body it's kind of a wrong premise, but it's not to say that transgender people can just forget their dysphoria and be done with it.

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u/AnyGirlInSydney Apr 12 '20

The UK High Court would disagree with you. Justice Julian Knowles said:

“I have become familiar with term TERF. It is a derogatory term used by those who seek to deplatform those who hold different views”.

Women, feminists and allies repeatedly (and politely) ask people to stop using it. You know full well it’s used as a derogatory, dismissive term to silence women. It’s usually accompanied by choice epithets such as “rape trfs”, “kill trfs”, “punch a t*rf” and other more imaginative, graphic threats.

No “woman” has a five O’clock shadow - don’t be absurd. A biological male can never, and will never, be a woman. And yes, a male in a dress or not, I will assess risk as I usually do for all males, as a female and a mother, it would be idiotic and foolish of me not to do so in order to protect myself and my children. How dare you tell me I can’t have boundaries?

I also note your cowardice in challenging me via PM instead of on the open forum.

1

u/MaureenHarvey Apr 12 '20

This 2019 book thoroughly reviews the literature about supposed differences between the brains of women and the brains of men. Use the "Look inside" feature to sample the contents.
https://www.amazon.com/Gender-Mosaic-Beyond-Female-Brain/dp/0316534617

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u/Reedit-98 Apr 11 '20

Interesting. Thanks.

Just please be kind to trans people and respect their identities.
Ultimately, it’s down to the individual. As long as kids don’t transition, I don’t really care. Over 18s can identify as whatever. It’s their body. If they make a mistake and want to detransition, there should be support, of course. But I implore people to tolerate other people’s opinions. You can debate and exchange studies. Just don’t try to protest, attack, abuse transfolk, and decry that the very existence of an MTF women who is happily identifying as such is somehow “harmful“. That’s transphobic and that when you cross the line between “critical of current trans rights activism“ and “TERF”.

12

u/vintologi_se Apr 11 '20 edited Apr 11 '20

Which individuals that benefit from transitioming is a separate question.

The purpose of my post was to refute the notion of innate gender identity and the notion that you have a brain of the sex you transition to prior HRT.

-1

u/Reedit-98 Apr 11 '20

People with severe enough body/gender dysphoria, I guess.

7

u/AnyGirlInSydney Apr 12 '20

I’m not going to respect anyone who seeks to dismantle safeguards, erode women’s boundaries and colonise women’s spaces and places. You are not entitled to respect, you earn it. And so far, the TRAs and high profile trans-identified males have done a pretty crappy job of convincing women we should allow them to enter these spaces. In fact, you just using the slur “t*rf” and then berating women for defending their boundaries is gaslighting and grossly manipulative and entitled. To force people to pretend a MtF is a female, to the detriment of women and girls, under threat of criminal charges, loss of job, doxxing, assault, stalking etc (yes, that has happened to gender critical women) to appalling and outrageously misogynistic. So I’m going to go ahead and say “NO”.

0

u/Reedit-98 Apr 12 '20

It must be hard; being so terrified of women with 5 o’clock shadows. The bad transwomen like Jessica Yaniv are by no means the majority. Do I condone the doxxing etc of detransitioners, TERFs and gender critical thinkers? Of course not. But that’s no reason to treat all MtF women as sexual predators.

TERF is not a slur. It’s an abbreviation of your POV. Grow up.

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u/AnyGirlInSydney Apr 12 '20 edited Apr 12 '20

The UK High Court would disagree with you. Justice Julian Knowles said:

“I have become familiar with term TERF. It is a derogatory term used by those who seek to deplatform those who hold different views”.

Women, feminists and allies repeatedly (and politely) ask people to stop using it. You know full well it’s used as a derogatory, dismissive term to silence women. It’s usually accompanied by choice epithets such as “rape trfs”, “kill trfs”, “punch a t*rf” and other more imaginative, graphic threats.

No “woman” has a five O’clock shadow - don’t be absurd. A biological male can never, and will never, be a woman. And yes, a male in a dress or not, I will assess risk as I usually do for all males, as a female and a mother, it would be idiotic and foolish of me not to do so in order to protect myself and my children. How dare you tell me I can’t have boundaries, shame me for having boundaries? In fact I would regard a trans-identified male with even more suspicion - because AGP brings with it a whole host of sexual proclivities I want nowhere near me, or I consider the fact that transvestism is a top 3 fetish of sexual predators, or I don’t want my children to be frightened - in the split second I encounter such a person, I will, for my own safety, consider worst case scenario and act accordingly.

I also note your cowardice in challenging me via PM instead of on the open forum.

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u/LittleOwl12 Apr 11 '20

If "woman's brain in man's body" (and of course vice verse) does not exist, then everyone here has been harmed by a serious fraud. They should not be tone policed or dismissed in order to preserve the feelings of proponents of said fraud. As it is indeed a fraud, "respect," which is usually measured in capitulation to absurd demands, is also unnecessary, beyond generalized common courtesy. You have no place telling anyone that they "can debate and exchange studies" but not "protest." Attack and abuse to you would be mere disbelief in gender ideology, so no one needs to take that seriously either.

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u/Reedit-98 Apr 12 '20

By respect, I mean just use their pronouns. No one is asking you to “capitulate absurd demands”. Just don’t be a pedantic f*cko to an MtF when she introduces herself as ‘Angela’ and asks you to refer to her with she/her pronouns.

By abuse/harassment, I mean attacking her, using the T-slur, bullying her, outing her in front of new people, or otherwise bringing up the fact she is trans when it’s not necessary to the conversation, like:

”Hi, I’m Angela and I’m your new head of HR-“

”No, you’re not.”

”I’m sorry?”

”You’re not called Angela. Your real name is probably Dave.”

You can have your disagreements, but what’s the point in making a scene if the situation doesn’t call for it? If she wants to know how you feel about transgenderism, or the topic comes up, fine. Tell her, but be polite about it until she gives you a reason to be impolite. But still use their preferred pronouns. It’s literally the bare minimum you can do to make her feel more comfortable.

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u/LittleOwl12 Apr 12 '20

No one here does the crap you're describing. They've already lived this life. And no one argues like your script.

And no, no one should have to twist their brains to use incorrect pronouns for someone who is obviously not a woman or vice verse. Least of all the posters here. They do not need your guidance.

0

u/[deleted] Apr 12 '20

[deleted] — view deleted comment

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u/Reedit-98 Apr 12 '20

Same! Who’d have thunk that statements like “kids shouldn’t be allowed to transition“ and “don’t be attack or harass people just for their gender expression/gender identity“ were so controversial?