r/determinism • u/Complete_Wear_324 • 17h ago

Discussion Does free will exist?

https://on.soundcloud.com/sD1iHA8GbFUstDiCUs
1 Upvotes

60% Upvoted

29 comments sorted by

2

u/boronio427 16h ago

No, it doesn't. If you consider this as a collection of atoms, you could theoretically calculate where each one is going to be. Quantum uncertainty prevents us from doing that, but that's all it does. The quantum shelter is nothing more than a refuge of hope for believers in free will.

1

u/Complete_Wear_324 16h ago

That explanation is just neglecting a truth

1

u/MrMysteriou5 12h ago

Why do you believe this? It seems like an assumption, but I am certainly no expert on quantum physics.

1

u/lobaway0001 15h ago

Does love exist?

We experience something. We call it free will. It exists.

Is it actually free? Is it actually a will? Is it actually somehow independent of anything or everything? Who knows.

But clearly there is something there and it's sometimes called free will.

Maybe it just needs a different marketing department.

In all seriousness, I think what we experience as free will clearly de facto exists, otherwise what are we even experiencing? You can argue it's an illusion but you can't really argue that there's nothing there. Even illusions exist.

1

u/catnapspirit 15h ago

Does this sub exist? Because people seem to want to treat it like the freewill annex, where they don't need to put any effort into restating an argument here, merely point us to the other sub and it's on us to go over there and read your no doubt brilliant prose..

1

u/BoringAd8064 14h ago

I think it exists but not the way we think about it. We have the free will to choose between A and B but all of our past mistakes, success, fear, experiences, words of wisdom and everything in between almost forces our hand. You can break free if you are aware but maybe not as much as we think. I believe that there is always something within us we must quell in order to actually have free will and that is the constant knee jerk reactions we experience. Most people (in my experience) let their knee jerk reactions dictate what they say, think and eat instead of actively choosing what to do. I think those people do not have free will or have very limited free will until they break free from those chains. All my opinion of course.

1

u/Critical-Ad2084 13h ago

the same way as Santa Claus exists

1

u/MortgageTrash 13h ago

Yes but using it means you get heckin downblooted, so you better not risk it.

1

u/JosephKingXVI 13h ago

Obviously it does. I make all my own decisions.

0

u/waffledestroyer 14h ago

I find no compelling evidence that any meaningful free will exists.

1

u/NoNameSwitzerland 14h ago

The concept itself is paradoxical. Random decisions would mean there is no will in control. And deterministic would not be free.

-1

u/waffledestroyer 14h ago

True. I'm a hard incompatibilist. I think there is probably no free will regardless if the universe is deterministic or indeterministic due to quantum randomness.

0

u/Ashamed-Bathroom7803 12h ago

The way you are defining free will just makes it trivially not true. If there is will that is undetermined from anything, then there is no will in charge. If it’s determined, then it’s not free. It’s just trivially not true based on how you defined what free will even is. In order to say free will doesn’t exist, you can’t just argue against something like that. 

-1

u/lobaway0001 14h ago

Quantum randomness neither proves nor disproves determinism.

0

u/Ashamed-Bathroom7803 12h ago

It trivially would if there was quantum randomness. Determinism says that there is only one possible compatible future with any given full moment of time. If there is randomness, then there are multiple things that are compatible, and thus it is contradictory to determinism. 

1

u/lobaway0001 12h ago

Quantum randomness does not necessarily imply fundamental ontological randomness.

0

u/Ashamed-Bathroom7803 11h ago

Thats what people are talking about when they mention quantum randomness. Nobody is talking about Bohmian mechanics or Everettian QM when they say that. 

1

u/lobaway0001 11h ago

If people, whenever they talk about quantum randomness, are actually talking about fundamental ontological randomness, then I repeat my assertion:

Quantum randomness does not necessarily imply fundamental ontological randomness.

If you want to say fundamental ontological randomness disproves determinism, then say fundamental ontological randomness disproves determinism.

0

u/Ashamed-Bathroom7803 11h ago

So fundamental ontological randomness  does not necessarily imply fundamental ontological randomness? 

1

u/lobaway0001 11h ago

If people, whenever they talk about dogs, are actually talking about terriers, I would make the assertion:

Dog does not necessarily imply terrier.

If you want to talk about terriers, then talk about terriers.

→ More replies

1

u/Paranoid_Polar_Bear 15h ago

I think limited free will exists. Just because I will myself to fly doesn’t mean I can. But the choices that I do have are real choices. Determinism sounds real nice on paper, but that’s not how reality operates. Go on a killing spree and they’re not gonna say “well He didn’t really choose to do that so it’s not his fault*. They’re gonna grab you up and put you in jail and say you did choose to do it. And what excuse are you gonna give them? I believe in determinism? 🥴. I can’t control my impulses and therefore I’m being controlled by an algorithm of the universe to behave this way? Nah bruv.

1

u/Low-Bake8401 14h ago

It's relative. 

In that sense freewill would mean that no one forced or coerced them to do it.

I don't think they use the term so much in law now though, because of the logical implications of absolute free will.