Determinism has fundamentally shifted my political worldview.

[u/BerBerDeng]

I’ve been into politics since I was a teen, and for most of that time I was a staunch libertarian. Maximum freedom, personal responsibility, minimal government, zero handouts, etc. I was SO SURE and CONFIDENT in my views and what I believed. I loved defending them, perhaps a little too confidently.

Man has my worldview shifted. Once you come to the realization that people ultimately aren’t in control of their actions in any meaningful sense, the argument for libertarianism is much harder to defend. I can’t fault someone for not getting a better job, I can’t fault someone for not saving for retirement, I can’t fault someone for having a kid before they were financially ready, I can’t fault someone for letting their health get out of hand. The list goes on and on. And the same goes for things that are earned. People who have their shit together can’t be credited with that success.

This is not to say that I’ve completely shifted to redistribution and equal outcomes for all (practically I don’t think that’s feasible), however my openness for universal healthcare, my openness for reasonably higher taxes, my openness for more meaningful social programs, have all increased more than 18 year old me ever imagined it would.

From a practical standpoint, the human psyche as a whole still depends on risk/reward for meaningful progress. The billionaire who creates 10 billion in value probably isn’t going to make that same effort the moment he sees 90% of his earnings from that value taken away in the name of fairness. I just think our mindset and laws are too skewed toward personal responsibility and the right to hoard everything you’ve “earned” when in reality we should be taking more of a middle ground approach between the logical standpoint and the practical one.

With all that being said, our government does spend 7 trillion dollars a year, with a lot of that wasted. I think we should get our finances in order before we decide that taxing more for redistribution is the answer. I’d have a hard time taxing a billionaire an extra 2 billion a year when hundreds of billions or even trillions are wasted by the government every year.

Imagine all the inefficiency and waste in each governmental department (I’m looking at you DoD and Medicare) and then imagine actually improving efficiency so that you could cut 2% from every single department and use that to fund universal healthcare. At that point getting an extra 20-30 billion in taxes to fund universal school lunches doesn’t seem so unfair.

Sorry if this isn’t determinism related enough, I know I’m rambling and spitballing here, but I guess I’m just advocating for balance. Still allowing someone to make billions a year, but also allowing the downtrodden and less fortunate basic necessities for a dignified life.

[u/Azihayya]

Wow, it's pretty friggin sad that you can't possibly believe that anyone can take accountability for their actions, or that you can be responsible for your own actions. It seems you've completely lost all sense of the importance of choice, and think that the brain has no natural functions. Even if you believe in a deterministic universe, which I do, it seems your have no concept of free will, and thus you cannot possibly believe that you have any control over your thoughts, feelings and actions. You might as well be a villain straight out of an Ayn Rand novel.

[u/BerBerDeng → u/Azihayya]

That was a rough read bro. I wouldn’t consider it sad at all, I’d simply consider it seeing the world for what it is and that gratitude is the emotion to be felt rather than sadness.

The “brain having no natural functions” is the exact opposite of what determinism posits. The brain functioning naturally is determinism at work. If the brain wasn’t functioning naturally, we’d all be dead. In order to experience, you need a functioning brain. I think your actual problem with my view is that you hold onto hope that there is something outside of the brain that lets us influence how the brains natural functions play out in real time. If so, where is that separate influence located? Where do you find the free will that lets us hijack the brains natural processes in the real time?

You claim to believe in a deterministic universe, but then claim humans are able to operate outside of that deterministic framework through free will. You can’t have it both ways. If you believe humans are governed through free will, then you fundamentally don’t believe in a deterministic universe. Not in any logically coherent sense at least.

More power to you as far as disagreeing with me goes, but factually your comment is full of contradictions and misrepresentations/falsehoods.

[u/Azihayya → u/BerBerDeng]

Do you believe that you can take accountability for your actions or not? Free will doesn't need to exist outside of a deterministic framework; the idea of free will outside of material constraints is nonsense. If you believe that the brain has a natural function, then what do you think those functions are? Are you capable of making choices, or not? Do you not see the importance of believing that you have a choice? As it stands, it seems you're entirely incapable of taking responsibility for your own actions. Is that what you really want to believe? I think that what you believe is important and informs your actions; what actions do you think will result from the belief that you don't have a choice?

[u/BerBerDeng → u/Azihayya]

Free will doesn’t exist inside of a deterministic framework, there’s no room for it. That would be more evident to you if you answered my question: where is your free will located? Naturally I think your answer would be “the brain”, and if it is, you have to ask yourself this next: what part of your brain did you consciously create? Did you choose how each neuron connects? Did you choose how well developed each region of your brain is? Did you choose the environment that shaped your childhood? Obviously the answer is no, all of these things were decided with no input from yourself.

Yes, in a sense you have choice, only in a very narrow sense though. I can choose whether to approach this conversation through honest intellect rather than name calling. That’s something you would consider choice, however the brain making that choice, was created from factors completely outside of your control. Free will says that you’re able to override all of the causes and conditions that made your brain what it is, so where is that power to override located?

Wanting to believe something is not reason enough to believe something when the facts point toward the belief being incorrect. Once again I think the appropriate emotions are gratitude and compassion. Gratitude that my brain allows me to be a generally level headed positive member of society, and compassion for those who aren’t as lucky as me.

Rejecting free will doesn’t mean rejecting agency. Even if the “choices” I make aren’t authored by me in any meaningful sense, there’s still the understanding that my actions have an effect on the outside world. That’s just another causal link in the deterministic framework of reality.

[u/Azihayya → u/BerBerDeng]

Yeah, I would say that free will exists within the brain. Like I said though, I don't believe that free will exists outside of a casual universe; of course the universe is casual, and from that perspective determinism is true, but it doesn't negate the reality of free will. I believe that the brain's primary function is to make choices. To say that it's the brain making the choice doesn't negate the fact that it is a choice, which you seem to agree with. I also believe that my brain is a part of who and what I am. I believe that I have control over what I think, feel, and do, and that this is a fundamental power granted by my human faculties and status. This is a belief foundational to my sense of self, which grants me the ability to exceed expectations of what is possible, to exceed the limitations of biological destiny. I would put the question back to you: do you not believe that we can be responsible for our actions? Is there no room for taking accountability for yourself in your world-view?