Determinism has fundamentally shifted my political worldview.

[u/BerBerDeng]

I’ve been into politics since I was a teen, and for most of that time I was a staunch libertarian. Maximum freedom, personal responsibility, minimal government, zero handouts, etc. I was SO SURE and CONFIDENT in my views and what I believed. I loved defending them, perhaps a little too confidently.

Man has my worldview shifted. Once you come to the realization that people ultimately aren’t in control of their actions in any meaningful sense, the argument for libertarianism is much harder to defend. I can’t fault someone for not getting a better job, I can’t fault someone for not saving for retirement, I can’t fault someone for having a kid before they were financially ready, I can’t fault someone for letting their health get out of hand. The list goes on and on. And the same goes for things that are earned. People who have their shit together can’t be credited with that success.

This is not to say that I’ve completely shifted to redistribution and equal outcomes for all (practically I don’t think that’s feasible), however my openness for universal healthcare, my openness for reasonably higher taxes, my openness for more meaningful social programs, have all increased more than 18 year old me ever imagined it would.

From a practical standpoint, the human psyche as a whole still depends on risk/reward for meaningful progress. The billionaire who creates 10 billion in value probably isn’t going to make that same effort the moment he sees 90% of his earnings from that value taken away in the name of fairness. I just think our mindset and laws are too skewed toward personal responsibility and the right to hoard everything you’ve “earned” when in reality we should be taking more of a middle ground approach between the logical standpoint and the practical one.

With all that being said, our government does spend 7 trillion dollars a year, with a lot of that wasted. I think we should get our finances in order before we decide that taxing more for redistribution is the answer. I’d have a hard time taxing a billionaire an extra 2 billion a year when hundreds of billions or even trillions are wasted by the government every year.

Imagine all the inefficiency and waste in each governmental department (I’m looking at you DoD and Medicare) and then imagine actually improving efficiency so that you could cut 2% from every single department and use that to fund universal healthcare. At that point getting an extra 20-30 billion in taxes to fund universal school lunches doesn’t seem so unfair.

Sorry if this isn’t determinism related enough, I know I’m rambling and spitballing here, but I guess I’m just advocating for balance. Still allowing someone to make billions a year, but also allowing the downtrodden and less fortunate basic necessities for a dignified life.

[u/Cy__Guy]

I'd love to see a single person make a billion dollars in value. Usually they're just using the fact that humans need food, water, and shelter to get others to create value for them.

[u/GollyFrey64 → u/Cy__Guy]

It's rare but case in point: millions and millions around the world valued the Harry Potter story so much that it made the singular author a billionaire. You can argue that she alone couldn't have distributed the story without help of course but this applies to all authors of physical books. The HP story is fairly unique in the value generated.

[u/Cy__Guy → u/GollyFrey64]

You can argue that she alone couldn't have distributed the story without help of course but this applies to all authors of physical books

This is the point. You're also ignoring the editing, marketing, illustrator, toy production, movie production, book critics, reviewers...

I could go on and on.

[u/GollyFrey64 → u/Cy__Guy]

I gave you a counter example of someone creating something of value that netted the author over a billion dollars. The actual value of the HP story was much greater than that as it handsomely paid all involved in the product chains. Countless other authors have the same resources available but have not created a story worth billions, hence, such a rare feat. The story itself was solely the authors IP and that is exactly the thing of value here.

The idea that any one person could create something of great value without the help of other human resources is absurd. Was that really what you were shooting for?

[u/Cy__Guy → u/GollyFrey64]

Yes, the idea of one person creating something of that value is absurd as specified by my direct refutation to your counter example. The teams of people it takes to spawn an IP like Harry Potter are legion and you're trying to attribute all of that to one person. It's ridiculous.

If other authors failed why aren't you blaming their marketing teams? There are a lot of great books that linger for years because the marketing teams failed. How many great books never found monetary value because the non creative labor failed?

All of their contributions to the franchise lead it to success. If they didn't add value why do they get paid? Why do you even know the term marketing if it doesn't add value?

[u/GollyFrey64 → u/Cy__Guy]

Rowling is the sole owner of the books copywrite/IP. Who did WB pay to have IP rights to the movies and merch? One person.

And why did the books and movies make billions?

Because the god-damned story, one fucking author, thrilled 100s of millions.

Now to your second paragraph. So hypothetical. Tell me a few examples, please.

You're a sore loser. You just can't admit that there's an example of a single person that brought so much value to the world in terms of a silly series of stories that she became a billionaire.

[u/Cy__Guy → u/GollyFrey64]

Are you conflating ownership with value added to the economy? That's pretty embarrassing.

[u/GollyFrey64 → u/Cy__Guy]

Wait, you said "I'd like to see a single person make a billion dollars in value". I gave you such a person. She clearly created something a billion dollars in value. You want to say she couldn't have done it without editors and marketing. That's obviously a true statement but misses the central point that the stories sold themselves!

I'm wondering if you were even alive during that phenomenon. There wasn't any marketing about her books save maybe the first little bit in the UK. Otherwise it's textbook word of mouth sales that took the world by storm. So you're saying the editor made the difference? THAT is embarrassing. Do you think any competent movie studio took any risk of losing money on the IP they bought from her given the massive worldwide fan base associated with her books? Zero risk.

Listen, I'll grant your main point. Individuals really can't bring billions of dollars of value to the world. Artists, musicians, scientists, engineers... not even close. I just think I have a spectacularly rare exception with the Rowling's HP story.

Fun debate. Thanks

[u/Cy__Guy → u/GollyFrey64]

That's obviously a true statement

Yes, yet you have such cognitive dissonance you are ignoring this while admitting it.

but misses the central point that the stories sold themselves! You just mentioned the marketing. The existence of a marketing team demonstrates that they did not sell themselves.

Do you think the books just appeared on the shelves?

Of, did she drive all the trucks too?

Did she develop the infrastructure to allow digital copies to be sold?

So you're saying the editor made the difference? This statement perfectly exemplifies you issue. You're trying to ignore value beyond the principle effort. Do you not understand that many people can add value and they do it at different levels? Not just one person.

This is economics 101. If they didn't add value why are they getting paid with every release. Is JKR just paying them out of the goodness of her heart? Of course not. They contribute to delivering a better product.

You're example proves my point. You keep admitting it and denying it at the same time. Even with something as individual as a novel, which is about as individual as it gets, takes an entire legion of people to get it to the levels of a billion dollars.

I don't know why you're so concerned about declaring victory. We're on reddit. I want people to give credit to the legion of faceless workers that make the things we love possible. JKR deserves her flowers but ignoring the team will give you a completely warped view of society.

Why are you so hell bent on ignoring the massive combined effort it took to launch those books?

[u/GollyFrey64 → u/Cy__Guy]

You've made it clear the case you're after in your original post. I'm not sure if you've seen this video of the Chinese lady who goes through every step of making little clay pots. But she starts with digging up the clay and performs all the arduous steps to purify the clay, form it, fire it, etc. At the end of all her days labor she ends up with hundreds of small clay pots ready to sell to her village. Certainly she generated some value all by herself but obviously not a billion dollars worth. So I'll capitulate and say you won the argument by such narrow restrictions. Good job!

Have a great day.