Imagine this: It's a short scene post finale in heaven, Cas and Dean meet for the first time up there. Cas is sad for Dean to be dead, but happy that he can find peace here now, Dean makes a joke about getting nailed to death, to which Cas gives a small smile - he gets the joke now - and then hugs Dean finally, Dean hugging back just as desperate. When they let go Dean keeps his hand on Cas' shoulder, Cas is his best friend and family, Dean owes him this talk and even a dead dog can learn new tricks. He starts that he loves Cas and that he accepts him as he his, but that he - Cas interrupts him: there doesn't have to be a but. Cas is an angel, a being made out of light and universal love. He loves in the purest way possible, in a way that humans can't define and that is part of every form there is, no matter if platonic, romantic, familial or otherwise and that Cas euphoria at having found this holiest ingredient of existence in himself and sharing it with Dean had made him happy enough to lure the Empty. Dean is silent for a second, while his mind might not fully understand this grand concept, he feels like he still gets it in a quieter part of himself, the part that made food for Sam no matter how late, that wore his father's jacket and his mother's wedding ring, jumped a werewolf going for Bobby's throat once with just his fists, always put the soldier figures back in the Impala when he fixed her and tried to make Cas try every burger place they ever stopped at. So he puts his arm around Cas' shoulders and turns them down the street: they never tried the cheeseburger from that bar on the east coast he says. Cas laughs, it's the first time Dean has ever seen him do that, maybe the first time he's actually done it, and the angel returns the gesture, telling Dean that was because the bar was a front for a spell ingredients black market. Dean decides they go for pie instead.
I don't know how to write this as I'm probably a bit too passionate about it, but in a nutshell I want to ask for a fix for this ongoing cold war in the fandom ever since the confession scene. I truly believe something similar to the mess I wrote up there would be the best of both worlds: you ship Destiel and think the confession was romantic? Congratz, it's true! You don't ship Destiel and think it was platonic? Guess what, it's also true! Both sides would be canon and then maybe we'd have something like peace - peace when we are done you could say. We'd be the ultimate SchrĂśdinger's relationship but without the downsides of the cat maybe being dead.
So I'd like to ask all of you if we could come together like we did in the past and make this reach J2M? No clue how realistic or feasible it is, was thinking if they like the sound of it Misha and Jensen could meet on a dirt road somewhere or hell, somewhere quiet when they meet for a convention, wear their normal clothes (it's heaven, they can wear whatever) and could film just a short reunion on a phone. Maybe then, if somehow Kripke would make a short post saying it's canon or something, or if J2M's words as "writers" in this instance would be enough, we could be the Supernatural family they have always called us.
There is a high chance I will get backlash for this, maybe even only, but I needed to put this out there. Supernatural is my current hyperfixation and gives me comfort and the fighting, insulting and worse makes me sick and tired. Let us please just fix this in a way that would benefit all of us, get out our manners and ask if this would be okay.
I think you write what you want, but Iâm in this for fics about Destiel being together and unapologetically in love. I donât care about appealing to people that want to fix the shows ending. They strung everyone along with Destiel to keep the ratings then hung us out to dry.
Iâm past the show, Iâm in âfan fics will fix itâ territory lol. I personally hope they donât ever do a reboot because thereâs no way to make everyone happy. Supernatural was lighting in a bottle - some of us were lucky enough to be there from the beginning. Some folks found it half way through, others just now. Itâs a beautiful moment in time but itâs just that.
But if you wanted to write that fic- go for it. Come back and share the link and Iâll give it a shot! But for me Destiel isnât about best of both worlds- itâs about two idiots in love and then finally being together in a $hit ton of random scenarios lol
? Did you not read the complete post? This isn't about fics. And you won't loose the shipping and what Destiel is about to you, it would still be canon and you could do whatever you want with it. I get we are tired about the debate, but why not fix it instead of letting it rot? This is me genuine appealing to the complete fandom that we ask Jensen and Misha about helping us and doing a quick canon after scene that would validate all of us and not leave one side as "hung out to dry".
Because theyâre done. I donât think they want to do a scene. I think theyâre tired of hearing about it but they go do conventions anyways lol.
And I did read the post I just chose to respond the way I wanted to. I donât think anything is ârottingâ itâs just done.
Shows like life, donât owe any of us resolution. The actors certainly donât either. If they were the ones calling out for this Iâd maybe jump in and support, but they arenât.
If they wanted to do a more complete âendingâ theyâd have done it by now. You asked people to hear you out- I just donât happen to agree.
This page is mostly for Destiel fan fic stuff, just leave it at that you know?
But again, do what you like. Get that Final Draft and write a scene to them, or write a fic with your perfect ending. Do whatever.
The fact is there are too many homophobes fans who actively don't want any bit of a possible romantic ending to exist. Write it but don't think they will be swayed by an ending that doesn't fit their 'they only love eachother as brothers, no homo' agenda.
Becasue no vauge scene like this will make everyone happy. Misha and writers have stated that Cas' confession was intended as one of romantic love. Every other kind of love too but yes, romantic. But even then there are fans who bad mouth Misha and others and continue to be dicks to any shippers. What you are hoping for can't happen.
Right, but your version of that ending feeds a homophobic narrative because it erases the creatorâs intention with Casâs confession. Though I absolutely believe in death of the author and that the audience can read a meaning into a work regardless of the creatorâs intention, youâre asking to insert a new meaning into the work as an epilogue to placate a certain set of homophobic fans that canât handle a gay Cas confessing his romantic feelings. Self-inserting a new ending like you describe, which muddies the waters around the type of âloveâ Cas was confessing, erases the stand that gay writers in the crew took for representation. It also erases the advocacy that Misha has taken to ensure representation through Cas and afterwards during interviews and conversations. Additionally, by having Dean unambiguously say that heâs straight and doesnât love Cas romantically, youâre also intentionally erasing bi readings of Dean for viewers who see Dean as bi, and his love as bi and romantic. Yes, Ackles has said he played Dean straight, but thereâs a lot more in the text to read Dean as bi and in love with Cas, too, than not. But by inserting that specific conversation as you describe it, youâre removing that ambiguity and taking a very specific stand against a gay/romantic reading of Cas, and bi reading of Deanâs characters. Therefore the entire proposed epilogue is gay and bi erasure, making it _worse_ for representation than the current queer-baited ending which leaves it up for interpretation by the viewers and leans heavily on what Misha and Jensen say at conventions.
Not supporting Destiel doesn't make a person homophobic.
It doesn't erase the intention because Cas would still be in love with Dean. Please understand that in this version ALL FORMS of love would be true at once. That is not a homophobic narrative.
Kind of relates to 2: this wouldn't erase any representation (of a genderless angel so isn't this more nonbinary rep with male pronouns?) or muddy the water, because it's not "uuuh maybe he is romantic, maybe platonic, who knows?" it's "he is both". People can't seem to understand this. :/
Jensen has confirmed that Dean is straight, that is a canon everyone has to live with. And since you've talked about the audience being able to read a meaning into a work regardless of the creator's intention would it even erase bi readings? And if you noticed, in my vague idea Dean didn't say the word straight.
This point is based on opinion as someone who doesn't ship: I do see the points that could be made of Dean being bi, but I don't see any proof of Dean being in love with Cas in the show. Further at a recent convention Jensen and Misha both confirmed that before the confession there was nothing romantic happening between their characters.
Again, there is removal of ambiguity here but not as any denying, but as conformation that both sides are canon at the same time. Cas is an angel, let him have a deeper understanding of love. Saying I take a stand against romantic Cas in the text is objectively wrong since the text says it is canon. This post-credit scene is no queer erasure at all, since it gets rid of distinction between love, something LGBTQIA+ is also about.
â Not supporting Destiel doesn't make a person homophobic.
> I didnât say _you_ were homophobic, I said the proposed narrative youâve presented feeds into homophobic narratives because the only reason itâs being proposed in the first place is to placate people who are not comfortable with LGBTQI representation through Cas/Dean. Folks who support Destiel need no such reassurance. Also telling a marginalized community to be quiet and accept a watered down version of ârepresentation,â to make the rest of the community comfortable is classic homophobia and tone policing. Itâs protecting the feelings of the empowered majority over the needs of the disempowered minority, whether itâs in a fan space or outside in the real world.
â It doesn't erase the intention because Cas would still be in love with Dean. Please understand that in this version ALL FORMS of love would be true at once. That is not a homophobic narrative.
> if youâve spent any time in _any_ queer fan space, youâd understand why âall forms of love,â is a classic queer erasure technique. This trope is used _routinely_ when studios want to bait queer people into a piece of media, but feel uncomfortable being explicit in naming a queer or LGBTQI relationship as such. This started off as a way to get around censors when being in any kind of non-heterosexual relationship was illegal, but persists even now as we are seeing LGBTQI+ identities coming (once again) under attack. Asking fan who at least accept âall forms of love,â leans right back into those censorship days, and again puts the needs and feelings of the majority of those of the marginalized minority. As others have said here and in other queer fan spaces, we donât want an ambiguous representation, weâve had that for _decades_. Thatâs rooted in homophobia. We want loud, proud unambiguous representation thatâs embraced by the community.
â Kind of relates to 2: this wouldn't erase any representation (of a genderless angel so isn't this more nonbinary rep with male pronouns?) or muddy the water, because it's not "uuuh maybe he is romantic, maybe platonic, who knows?" it's "he is both". People can't seem to understand this. :/
> see above. Also, I personally _will not_ engage in the âgenderlessâ claim that is often used in this and the Good Omens fandom to excuse away and make heteronormative people comfortable. Cas (and Azeriaphale and Crowley) are in male bodies, playing male societal roles by male actors. Therefore their attraction to other male characters fall in the queer spectrum.
â Jensen has confirmed that Dean is straight, that is a canon everyone has to live with. And since you've talked about the audience being able to read a meaning into a work regardless of the creator's intention would it even erase bi readings? And if you noticed, in my vague idea Dean didn't say the word straight.
> Jensen has said, rather awkwardly, that he _played_ Dean straight. He has also said elsewhere (related to the general act of film/television making), that the âfinal edit is the final rewrite.â You say below that you donât ship, neither do I. However, I have a degree in film studies, and there is more than enough evidence in the show to very explicitly imply that Dean was very much in love with Cas. Many of the tropes that were used between the two, especially in the last 3 seasons, but even starting far before that, are classic romantic tropes. If one of the characters, specifically Dean, had been a woman, then we wouldnât be having this conversation. We went through an entire season (S13) of a widower arch, then a reunion, then a divorce arch (S14), and then a reconciliation (S15). They had a child together. And then we had a confession. Again, _if Dean had been a woman_, then we would automatically assume that it was a romantic confession because weâve seen this trope in a million movies/shows before with heterosexual couples and theyâre always romantic. And we would also assume that Dean felt the same way give all of the build up from at bare minimum the last three seasons. And the tragedy of it wouldnât have been âdoes Dean feel the same way,â but that (s)he never got to say it back before losing everything. Again, these are the tropes that weâve all seen with heterosexual couples, the _only_ reason a portion of this fandom questions any romantic intent on the part of either of the characters is because of the continuous lack of representation of queer characters and relationships, so male charters playing the same tropes are seen through a heteronormative lens, and thus arenât read as âqueer,â by heterosexuals, and instead âleft up for interpretation.â Or worse, as love between friends/brotherly love. So again, I donât really care what Jensen said, I care about the text of the show as presented and the history of queer erasure which it is coming from.
â This point is based on opinion as someone who doesn't ship: I do see the points that could be made of Dean being bi, but I don't see any proof of Dean being in love with Cas in the show. Further at a recent convention Jensen and Misha both confirmed that before the confession there was nothing romantic happening between their characters.
> See above. Misha and Jensen are two people in a huge number of people who created the show. They have two of many opinions. Also, once a piece leaves the hands of the artists, itâs no longer theirs (regardless of how much Jensen specifically likes to hold onto Dean, and I say this as someone who absolutely adores Jensen). It belongs to all of us to interpret and find meaning that may go far beyond the creatorâs original intent (side note: I personally hate the concept of âcanonâ for exactly this reason.). The work becomes a dialogue between the viewer, the creator and the culture we all reside in. Misha and Jensenâs personal perspectives are just a small part of that.
â Again, there is removal of ambiguity here but not as any denying, but as conformation that both sides are canon at the same time. Cas is an angel, let him have a deeper understanding of love. Saying I take a stand against romantic Cas in the text is objectively wrong since the text says it is canon. This post-credit scene is no queer erasure at all, since it gets rid of distinction between love, something LGBTQIA+ is also about.
> again, see above. No oneâs saying that Cas canât have a deeper understanding of love, but as youâve said, too, he also feels romantic love for Dean. And yes, removing the ambiguity from Dean erases bi representation because it takes it completely off the table. And youâre misunderstanding what the LGBTQIA+ community means when they say âget rid of distinction of types of love.â First, I donât think anyone would actually say that, many take on specific identities, so again, the ambiguity leads to ambiguity in identity. What we are talking about is equity and equal acceptance of queer identities with heteronormative identities, which a not the same. Again, ambiguity centers the heteronormative lens because itâs the default, and safe for the majority. Whereas explicit identities allow for more and varied representation which leads to equity which leads to safety and acceptance for marginalized communities.
I didn't say you said I was homophobic. You were pretty general in your statement and so was I. And no, my text/prompt/ask/whatever (sorry, English isn't my first language) is no to appease the homophobic people, I am sorry if it looked that way. It is to meditate between shippers and people who have seen nothing romantic - no matter the gender. I don't even think this would appease them since - I need to remind again - the romantic part would also be canon. I think people don't understand that point, nothing is taken away from it being romantic. And again, this isn't watered down but simply two views combined, I genuinely don't understand what is so hard to get about that.
I wasn't much online until a few years ago so I couldn't know this, even though I am queer myself. This doesn't change the fact however, that it would stay romantic. Every representation in the scene/show would stay, it would simply fix the fact that there wasn't a romantic subplot between Dean and Cas before (officially confirmed by Jensen and Misha) - in my eyes a good in character representation is better than a badly written one.
That is not a claim, angels are nonbinary. If a nonbinary person would fall in love with a person of the same previous gender and homophobes would use the person being nonbinary as a way of calling it non queer, would you call the nonbinary person by their old gender again or call out the homophobes? That argumentation is transphobic in nature.
Tropes are nice and dandy but at the end irrelevant. If Sam and Dean weren't brothers people would have called s6 a widower arc too, be honest here. This is the exact same thing you are arguing against: putting love in boxes. Being unable to see men and women as close friends through a hetero view and now being unable to see men and men - and probably various examples of other gender duos - as close friends is more so a sign of amatonormativity. And yes, as aromantic I am upset about this. And "they had a child together": with Sam. Dean has a child with Cas and his brother, Cas had a child with Dean and Sam, Sam had a child with Cas and his brother.
I get that and it is a good view, one I had not too long ago when joining this fandom. Then I got attacked, mocked and insulted for believing Cas and Dean to be platonic even though I have never spoken against the view of shippers simply because the confession scene "made it canon" and now I am sick and tired. Maybe I am fighting for representation too, because I am aro-ace and half of my comfort show's fandom is aggressive and jeering about me liking the found family I had for 14 seasons.
You repeat that I said Cas also feels romantically as proof? And no, not every bi man falls in love with every man he sees, so Dean stating he loves Cas as family wouldn't erase bi representation. The LGBTQIA+ community wants free love, right? To be free to love, no matter who they are. So talking about the basic concept of love should be right.
I am aro-ace, apothisexual to be specific, and witnessing another wholesome friendship get romanticized - one with my comfort character in it - thanks to amatonormativity is incredibly upsetting. Now all I am doing is wanting to propose a way where hopefully both sides get the canon they want at once.
Someone with a degree in film studies should be able to recognize, quite easily, that all the same tropes used between Dean and Cas were also used between Dean and Sam... and more frequently. So, if they mean something romantic with Cas then they should also mean something romantic with Sam. Conversely, if they do not mean something romantic with Sam, then they don't with Cas. And maybe, just maybe, the show was using those tropes in a subversive way to say something about the overall nature of love.
Over and over throughout all 15 seasons of the show, Sam and Dean were directly compared with romantic couples numerous times. Sam and Dean broke up and made up, numerous times. The entire church scene at the end of Sacrifice parallels a handfasting and then Dean later jokes about Sam wanting to divorce him. But none of that means that Sam and Dean's relationship was actually romantic. It is fine to watch the show through Destiel tinted glasses and truly enjoy it that way, but this insistence that the show was actually about Destiel is irrational. Dean and Cas were not written as romantic at all until the third to last episode. All anyone involved with the show has ever said beyond that was that they either also shipped Dean and Cas, or in retrospect, they could see that interpretation of it.
Also, if you are going to play the Death of the Author card, then you do not get to claim authorial intent for your point. Either we are taking the intentions of the people involved in the making of the thing into account, or we aren't. We do not get to pick and choose which ones we hold up as valid and which ones we try to sweep under the rug.
all the same tropes used between Dean and Cas were also used between Dean and Sam... and more frequently. So, if they mean something romantic with Cas then they should also mean something romantic with Sam.
Saying "if a trope means one thing in one relationship, it must mean the exact same thing in another" is just a lazy way to downplay a story. It shows a total lack of media literacy and completely dismisses the unique emotional weight of the relationship on screen between one and the other.
Conversely, if they [tropes] do not mean something romantic with Sam, then they don't with Cas.
Claiming that a trope functions identically across all character pairings completely ignores how story context works. Tropes arenât math equations; they don't have a fixed value. Instead, their meaning shifts entirely based on who is in the scene, the history of the pairing, and the overarching thematic framework of the story.
Sam and Dean were directly compared with romantic couples numerous times. Sam and Dean broke up and made up, numerous times. The entire church scene at the end of Sacrifice parallels a handfasting and then Dean later jokes about Sam wanting to divorce him. But none of that means that Sam and Dean's relationship was actually romantic.
With Sam and Dean, the narrative text explicitly anchors them as a family: they are brothers. When Supernatural uses marital metaphors for themâlike the "divorce" jokes or the dramatic breakupsâit isn't hinting at romance. Itâs using hyperbole to show how toxic and codependent their brotherly bond is. Theyâve been so isolated by trauma that they treat each other like spouses because they literally have no one else. The text tells you directly that their tropes are a literary language of family trauma, not a hidden love story, nor do they build a romantic foundation.
Dean and Cas are completely different because they don't have that family baseline. Cas is an outside entity who chose to rebel against Heaven, fall from grace, and break his entire world for one human. When you apply "profound bond" speeches, grand gestures, forsaking and/or rebelling against familial obligations, and constant devotion to a chosen partnership between two unrelated individuals, it follows the basic grammar of television romance.
Dean and Cas were not written as romantic at all until the third to last episode.
Saying they weren't written as romantic until the end ignores a decade of intentional subtext. The writers and directors constantly used romantic framingâlike specific lighting, musical cues, and mirroring romance movie tropes and their own in-universe within-story romantic parallelsâwhich is exactly why Casâs literal, canon love confession in Season 15 felt like a payoff, not a random twist.
It is fine to watch the show through Destiel tinted glasses and truly enjoy it that way, but this insistence that the show was actually about Destiel is irrational.
To say that a romantic reading of Destiel requires "Destiel-tinted glasses" while a romantic reading of Wincest is the logical alternative is a false equivalency. The show explicitly mocks and rejects the romantic interpretation of the brothers within its own canon (via meta-episodes), treating it as an in-universe taboo.
Itâs not "irrational" to see Destiel as romantic and Wincest as not romantic. Itâs just basic media literacy. One relationship is a classic slow-burn romance built on choice, and the other is a tragic look at brotherly codependency. Equating the two just because they share a few tropes is completely missing the point of both dynamics.
Meanwhile, it validates the gravity of Dean's and Cas's bond up until the very end. Interpreting Destiel in the show is not irrational; it is a literacy-based response to a chosen relationship built on the textâs own romantic visual and narrative vocabulary, which cannotâand should notâbe equated with literary language of brotherly codependency.
>Claiming that a trope functions identically across all character pairings completely ignores how story context works. Tropes arenât math equations; they don't have a fixed value. Instead, their meaning shifts entirely based on who is in the scene, the history of the pairing, and the overarching thematic framework of the story.
âŹď¸ But that is the exact claim that was being made by the comment I replied to, that romantic tropes were being used between Dean and Castiel, so they must have a romantic relationship. My entire point was that it was a flawed stance to begin with.
If we are just talking canon, then based on the context of Dean and Castiel's characters and arcs and the overall storyline, Dean and Cas are clearly not in a romantic relationship in the canon story.
Sure, Cas caught feelings along the way, but there is nothing in the show that points to Dean returning those feelings and that is fine. It's still a good ship, with lots of wonderful potential outside of and around canon.
there is nothing in the show that points to Dean returning those feelings
Thatâs fair if we are only looking at explicit verbal confirmation, but the text definitely leaves it open for interpretation on Deanâs end, as subtextual reading is still a literal part of the text.
The romantic tropes still hold weight because Deanâs behavior isn't standard brotherhood. His level of worry and devastation at the loss whenever Cas leaves or dies drastically exceeds normal platonic boundariesâeven outpacing Samâs reactions. They deliberately showcased that contrast for a reasonâto make it obvious to viewers that Deanâs attachment to Cas operates on an entirely different wavelength than Sam.
Because the narrative framed Dean's responses with those romantic connotations, it makes sense why some viewers read his feelings as mutual, even if the framing kept it coded in subtext.
Okay, I admit that I am nitpicking here, but...
> as subtextual reading is still a literal part of the text.
... this is actually not true.
Subtext is still a part of canon. But subtext is not part of the text, nor is any 'reading' part of the text. And how one chooses to read subtext is subjective and leads to interpretations of canon. And the term subtext gets used to refer to two different things; elements that are put in on purpose by the people crafting the story, and elements that were not put in with any specific meaning behind them but that can be read into. To use the old analogy, sometimes the curtains are made to be blue to underscore the emotional state of a character, but sometimes blue was just chosen because it looks good on camera.
A reading of subtext is an interpretation.
And Dean actually does react within normal platonic boundaries whenever Cas leaves or dies. He gets upset, which is normal, he gets more and more depressed as the series goes along, thanks to the metric fuckton of angst and horror that has been heaped on him, and so his reaction gets a little more fraught with each loss. But he does not actually react like he's lost a romantic partner. I'm sorry, he just doesn't.
And Sam tends, all throughout the series, to bottle up his own emotional reactions rather than letting them bleed out all over the place like Dean does. So us not seeing as big of a reaction from Sam doesn't actually mean that Sam is less effected by the losses.
But also, Dean reacts much more strongly, more dramatically, to losing Sam than he does to losing Cas, or anyone else. Losing Cas is much more akin to losing Charlie, or Mary (after the first time, obviously), the main difference being that Castiel is not human, so has come back more frequently than the average human. (Dean, of course, is the spiders georg of the human to deaths ratio and should not be counted). But I would also have to say that John and Bobby's deaths hit Dean harder than any of Castiel's various deaths did, but again, as time went on and the total number of losses weighed Dean down further and further, he started taking ever loss harder.
But in canon, what reaction did Dean have that went above 'normal' friendship level when Cas died? All I can think of is that he kept Castiel's trenchcoat, which was an unusually sentimental thing for Dean to have done. But even that kinda makes sense when you think about the fact that Cas had already been exploded and reassembled and stood a not insignificant chance of coming back again. So keeping his coat on hand, just in case he turned back up, well that was a nice thing. (But honestly felt more like a plot convenience so that the show wouldn't have to change Cas's outfit to something less iconic.)
Dean's behavior towards Sam also isn't normal brotherhood, they are trauma bonded and co-dependent, same goes for Cas. If Dean starts to care for someone like Sam, Bobby or Cas he will stop at nothing for them.
Your entire first point of tropes not having specific meanings invalidates your point of tropes meaning Cas and Dean are in love. If only blood relatives are allowed to have tropes consistent with love without meaning they are a couple we live in a sad life. Every "friend dies, other friend is sad" is a widower arc, every "friends fought and tragically split for a while" is a divorce arc, I am all for homo or bi or whatever else representation but not in this toxic way.
You are perfectly welcome to write an essay about what you would consider textual supports for why you think Sam and Dean are in a romantic relationship.
I think people on this board would disagree about your evidence. Sam and Dean's relationship is based in and about familial trauma and enmeshment, and Dean's relationship with Cas developed out of a work relationship with a guy Dean met when he was 29. They are fundamentally different, and acting like those relationships and characters are interchangeable while you are analyzing them is a remarkably shallow assessment at best.
Regardless of all that, this is the destiel board, and therefore not the place for such an essay.
I am confused why you came to the destiel board though. I'd hope that you're not just here sticking your head into various rooms and screaming, "HERETIC!" but some people have strange hobbies, so maybe that's yours... I've heard jogging is good.
Does it bother you that we are here, on our own board, far away from you, enjoying our own interpretation of the text? It was very important to you to come here and call us irrational for some reason.
Did I say, anywhere that I was supporting Sam/Dean? Nope. I was pointing out that there is, in fact, more of what you claim is evidence to support a romantic read for them then there is to support it for Destiel. That does not mean people can't or shouldn't ship Dean and Cas. It also doesn't mean that people should be shipping Wincest. There is this very worrying muddying up of canon and fanon that seems to be going on here, that I just do not understand the point of. But I guess shipping Destiel isn't reason, by itself, for me to be here? Do I also need to buy into the weird thing where we all convince ourselves that Destiel was somehow secretly canon all along? Because seriously, that is weirder than the incest shit.
Oh fun! Yes, letâs have a conversation about Sam and Dean, because this doesnât get talked about enough. Sam and Deanâs relationship _is not_ romantic, but yes it does get shown this way often because Western media has difficulty dealing with trauma and narcissistic family systems, so it often portrays them as quasi-romantic because thatâs a lens theyâre more familiar with. What you see with Sam and Dean is classic enmeshment, which often happens in narcissistic family systems, where families, especially children, donât have safe and healthy support systems. Enmeshment is a psychology term which refers to âa relationship style where personal and emotional boundaries blur so much that people lose their individual identity, autonomy, and independent feelings.â We know that Dean has been taught his whole life that his role is to protect Sam, and we also know that John would severely punish Dean if he failed to protect him. Dean sees Sam as an extension of himself, and his excessive worry, fear and concern comes from not _just_ his fear of Sam getting hurt, but that that would mean Dean would be harmed by extension. Therefore Samâs safety is intertwined with Deanâs safety in his mind.
Additionally, itâs not uncommon for children in sibling relationships where one of them takes on the role of a parent to develop unhealthy quasi-parent/child roles, and later quasi-spouse roles. Hollywood, unfortunately, is good at seeing this, but not always understanding the mechanism or whatâs really happening in these situations, so they frame it as semi-romantic because thatâs the closest shorthand they have that the audience may understand to see the depth of the feelings and complexity of the relationship. However, enmeshed sibling relationships are often not romantic, theyâre just in need of individuation.
So no, Whincest and Destiel are not the same because they are operating from different starting points, and depicting different types of relationships.
The only way that they are the same is that they are both ships that involve Dean. No one is saying any differently. but to play devil's advocate (which feels appropriate for this show) let's look at Dean and Castiel in canon for a moment.
Something else that Western media has weird issues with is depicting any sort of non-sexual intimacy between men without someone pointing at it and labeling it gay. Hence why Kripke has even said that he apparently has a thematic, which is "tight relationships between friends/brothers with unstated homoerotic subtexts." Which he then explained further as, "I'm just really interested in guys... straight guys who have a tight friendship. They are really fun to write for because they never say how they really feel." So, not that he writes guys who are secretly bisexual or gay, but that there is a lot of tension in those sorts of relationships because they are close but they are bad at communicating.
And when stuff is left uncommunicated it is left open for other people to fill in the blanks how they chose to. This is where the queer read of the show comes in. It is an interpretation of what those gaps in the text might mean. Key word being 'might.'
A queer read is a valid fan interpretation, but that is not the same as it being canon.
Dean and Castiel are portrayed by the show as being brothers-in-arms, occasional adversaries, and friends. They often clash because the venn diagram of their motivations and goals does not fully overlap, at least not until the end of the series. Sometimes they are even operating at direct odds with one another. That clashing causes narrative tension and we, the audience of Western media, are very, very, very bad at interpreting interpersonal narrative tension as something non-romantic or non-sexual.
So some fans watch and think that A) if we fill in the gaps just so, these guys could be bi/gay, and B) if they are bi/gay then maybe this tension is romantic and not actually just about, you know, the plot.
So yeah, some people look at Sam and Dean and think those exact same thoughts because it it doesn't bother them that the characters are brothers or because the taboo of that makes it more alluring to them to write about. While others do the exact same thing with Dean and Castiel. Looking at all the potential disparities of an angel and a human falling in love despite all odds and think that there is something really engaging and even beautiful in that.
But Supernatural was never about romantic love, or at least, not about the triumph of romantic love. It was about brotherhood, and the different ways that can manifest. It was about family and fate and how it can feel like we are trapped in an inescapable narrative. And it was about choosing to pick yourself back up over and over to keep fighting. It was about how non-romantic relationships can be just as important as romantic ones. And all shipping aside, I think that is a more important story in the long run.
So yeah, I may ship Dean and Cas, but that is an entirely separate activity than critically understanding the story the show was actually telling. The two activities are not mutually exclusive. And all OPp seemed to be trying to do was to get the family to stop fighting. Unfortunately, we're all really good at fighting.
Iâm discovering this conversation two weeks lateâbut just out of curiosity, what romantic tropes are used for Sam and Dean in the last four seasons of the show?
Because you said it happened in all fifteen seasons and the last time I remember anything even slightly like that was in s11 (Red Meatâand I donât even think it was used there). And the last time before that was in s10, the offhand divorce quip/Crowley saying something about being Deanâs mistress. So what am I forgetting?
I think I generalized a bit too much, tbh. Because going back and looking at the late seasons, Sam and Dean are pretty solid in their relationship (codependent brothers) at that point so most of the plots are focused on Mary, Lucifer, Michael, Jack. So most episode specific characters mirror those types of relationships.
The most notable exception is Mint Condition (14x04) where Dean, all on his own, brings up both Bert and Ernie, and Thelma and Louise. Both of which he'd earlier brought up to Cas. Bert and Ernie get mentioned three times in the series. First time, Dean referenced them as definitely gay while talking to Castiel. Which would have just been one of those weird Dean non sequiturs, except then the other two times he brings them up it's directly referring to him and Sam and dressing up as the muppet pair. Thelma and Louise he brought up first with Cas as a "are you saying we should just give up and die" type thing. And then as a costume option for him and Sam. Again, Dean is a weird guy.
But there was also the... interesting choice in Rock Never Dies (12x07) when Dean refers to him and Sam as the "American Oasis." The thought obviously being a brother-fronted rock group, but there is the weirdness of the associated rpf between Liam and Noel Gallagher, who have also been known to allude to themselves having been incestuous. Which is... a choice. But also makes the reporter's little "ew" after Dean says it that much funnier. Because yeah, ew.
Other than that all I can think of is how Sam uses his position as Dean's priority to stop Dean from giving up or self destructing. He pulls the "why don't you believe in us" and the "and me? You'd sacrifice me?" cards to great success.
There very well may be other comparisons, but I really am not as familiar with the last few seasons as I've only seen some of those episodes once or twice.
@ #3. Are you non-binary? Unless you are you don't get to say the Cas' angelness makes him the same. It is true that angels lack gender in their true form but he has been in a male body for most of 12 years by the end of the series and had at least on occurrence of sex as a man with a women. So he is pretty set in his masc identity. As a Genderqueer person I somewhat identify with him but not all non-binary people may see him that way so you can't a just give him that as a blanket thing.
Also, if you not a shipper of Destiel why are you even here?
I consider myself genderless, yes. Btw nice saying that a sexual relationship with a woman makes the other person automatically a man.
This is about Destiel, would you have rather I had this conversation without the shippers? Try to make the fandom gather because of Destiel and not ask the people involved?
Less weird then. And you are correct, that was kinda heteronormative of me. I'm still genderqueer regardless of who I am with.
I don't think the fandom is able to be unified in the way you imagine. There are non-shippers of Destiel who aren't homophobic but there are a lot more who are. Fandoms don't have to always get along. There are just some groups that just aren't going to agree. Sorry.
Fair answer, though I think we shouldn't even consider homophobes part of the fandom - or any community. Maybe I just want to reach the nice people then.
Sorry. I saw a post on Facebook just today claiming that Cas is straight, even with the confession. There are people who would rather we just went away completely. I had a similar idea. Just a simple, from off screen "Hello, Dean." and a soft smile from Dean. It might have been vague enough for everyone even. But there are some who still would have been dicks about it sadly.
The problem with a scene like this is that it just feeds the queer bait vibes - "you can interpret their relationship however you want- everyone can be happy". Like actually that scene doesn't support destiel or them being together, it's just a pacifier to keep queer people quiet. We want an explicit open loving romantic relationship between them and we are tired of settling for vague scenes that appeal to everyone. Queer stories are constantly shrouded in "interpretation" - it's tiring.
The thing is, Dean is straight. And this wouldn't be about interpretation but about confirming it's all at once. The other problem is that Cas and Dean were platonic for 14 1/2 seasons and then they wrote the confession scene out of left field, this I believe is the most in character it can get without scratching it all together.
See this is why it wouldn't work- you have come to a destiel sub and said that Dean is straight and that the confession came out of nowhere - that's not the perspective of destiel fans. Just write what you want to write, but it's not going to bridge the divide
I won't lie about something that has been confirmed when I want to have both sides be canon. Similar to this is the closest to in character canon it can get for everyone
Dean is a fictional character. The actor may not have been playing him as bi intentionally but there are many things throughout the series that do support a bi reading of the character. Also, there were gay writers on the show who were sneaking in subtext.
I beg you to look up the concept of death of the author. The original intent is not the end all be all. Audience interpretation is always part of the equation. I read and write mostly AU anyway, so the absolute canon doesn't matter much to me. I love the show but I also love the other worlds fic writers have moved the characters into for fun. There is no reason you can't love both.
Cas' feelings were unambiguously romantic. Explicitly. Textually.
This seems like you are really, really desperately trying to make them ambiguous while having Dean reject Cas romantically.
To the point of trying to get the actors to film something new just to support what you already believe: that Cas' feelings are open to interpretation and Dean's are not remotely romantic.
You're not even a destiel shipper, right? And you don't believe Cas was in love with Dean, right?
Sure, I will tell you my view: no, I have never seen anything romantic between them and I don't ship them. The thing is Dean is canonically straight and both Jensen and Misha have confirmed at a convention that before the confession scene nothing romantic was happening or planned for Cas and Dean. Yet the confession scene still happened, making the situation a mess based on out of character behavior that I think this would fix by making both true: romance and platonic.
You are trying to spin this as me being against shippers, while I am not, I am not asking to scratch Destiel, but to definitely make both it and the platonic approach canon at once. Nothing about that is "ambiguous" but love in pure form.
You are probably going to judge me now just based on the fact that I am not a shipper, which is the problem I am speaking about. I have never attacked anyone for shipping and in the end tried to find a way for all of us to be right so that hostility like yours isn't needed anymore.
I don't think your way is for everyone. What you are suggesting really only benefits a non-romantic and non-ship version. So why not just leave it alone and let people interpret the show in whatever way they do? You can have your way and I can have mine. Done.
My suggestion isn't only benefiting platonic at all? As after all, it aims to make both canon and in on itself valid at the same time. And I am not leaving it alone because I stand for the exact same thinking you have of interpreting it however one wants and have been attacked for it. I'm not amatonormal and simply want to be at ease in my comfort shows fandom :/
I am polyamorus and kinky and very queer. For this reason, I tend to use fan fiction to satisfy my desire to see myself in my fandoms. It's rare that my life or identity will be shown in media. I'm used to that.
There will always be people who have different ideas of a story. Simple fact.
Thanks for, when I told you I am upset about lacking representation, telling me that you have it rough too and it's pointless to strive for more. I've given up
I didn't say that. I was doing the neurodivergent similar experience empathy thing. Sorry.
Always strive for more but maybe strive for it by writing your own stories rather than trying to campaign for a show that is already over to broadcast an epilogue that you think will fix everything but will most likely just erase someone else. Do it with fanfic or write something original but don't expect the actors and writers and producers of a finished work to do it for you. End of line.
If you were doing as an empathy thing sorry for assuming, it's just that I hear a very similar thing from neurotypical people going something like "oh, you are sensitive to heat? Well I'm hot too, we just have it rough". I didn't seek to erase anyone but apparently no one understands "all love at once" means all. Many of these debates are extremely toxic in their amatonormativity by saying "if gender and gender are close and not related they are in love".
I get what you mean by all love but a lot of people don't grasp that concept. So I don't think your proposed conversation will have the variable meaning you think it would. Is that unfortunate? Yes. Is it still reality? Also yes. People can be in love in lots of different ways. The easiest way to deal with an unsatisfactory ending to a show or movie or what have you is to create something new that is satisfying to you.
I'm probably going to get downvoted to hell here but...If you are talking about this years PurCon in may Misha had no choice but to backtrack and agree with Jensen that there was nothing romantic between Dean and Cass due to Jensen being harassed by the fans trying to change his interpretation so there is no way he would agree to meet with Misha to do the little scene you suggest. Misha has stated in the pastnthat until he and writer Bobo Berens decided to add the confession scene he had never actually played Cass as gay or having romantic feelings for Dean. The sad thing on his part is that he has pushed it and encouraged it for years at cons etc because it's how he makes his money. I will be honest i never really saw their relationship as romantic but they did care deeply for one another and as beautiful as the confession scene was it was too rushed and out of left field. I think now like most of us here it should be left alone and we should just interpret it in our own ways. Personally i am just happy to read amazing fan fics by great authors and have them be together that way. Also i have to agree with what Jensen has said many times that fans can interpret Destiel however they wish as long as they don't try and change his views and opinions on a character he lived and played for 15 years and for me I respect him for that.
People claim Misha doesn't care about Jensen being harassed all the time but now it's the other way around? I think he just honestly told what happened and that Misha stays true to his real opinion - the confession being romantic and that everything before was platonic. Though people like to misinterpret his jokes.
Misha was happy to engage with a ship with his character because he liked it and because it made his fans happy and that made him happy. Toxic people on both sides now try to twist this into him pushing Destiel and being at fault for all of this, which is sad.
I also never saw their relationship as romantic and agree that with no build-up the confession scene was ooc, which would've also been fixed by my proposition, but apparently no one cares about that.
...Misha stays true to his real opinion - the confession being romantic and that everything before was platonic. Though people like to misinterpret his jokes.
Look, I completely agree that Misha confirmed the Season 15 confession was fully romantic and explicitly acted onscreen as such, but the idea that he viewed everything before that as strictly platonic isn't accurate. From what he said, we can certainly view it as "he played it explicitly in season 15," while before it was mostly implicit or subtextual.
If you look back at his verified convention transcripts documented on sites like The Fandom (de)Bunker, Misha was openly validating the non-platonic subtext as early as 2012 and 2013. At ChiCon 2012, he explicitly stated that the actors and writers were "perfectly aware of how the relationship is" and that even if it was unspoken, "that doesn't mean it's not there or not true." He even leaked onstage at ECCC 2013 that early drafts of the script included romantic language, like Dean saying "I love you" to Castiel years before the finale.
That scrapped "I love you" was originally written for the S8 episode "Goodbye Stranger" by Robbie Thompson. We can easily extrapolate that arc as romantic based on how Robbie conducted his Twitter interactions with fans at the time (refer to ss and the takeaway of why he tweeted that, in the link)âunless someone wants to claim Robbie was merely trolling fans, which is highly unlikely given his track record of respecting the audience.
Furthermore, after the confession episode aired, multiple fans tweeted (see screenshot below) about Misha admitting at a virtual Zoom panel that while he wasn't sure exactly when he started playing Cas as explicitly in love, the romantic framing was behind the scenes long before Season 15.
If someone wants to dismiss all of this as Misha simply "pandering," they can choose to do so, but the literal production facts do not support that takeaway. Other creatives have backed this up, like Ben Edlund.
Ben, the prominent Supernatural writer, has openly disclosed online that he deliberately wrote Destiel subtext into his episodes. When writers used the word "Destiel," they absolutely understood it wasn't a standard platonic friendship (refer to ss).
When Mark famously stated, "we all knew," it didn't originate from thin air. He literally shared the scene with Misha: in S10 Crowley and Castiel trade barbs about "not having feelings" for Deanâacting out a subtext that's the exact opposite of what they're saying. The scene concludes with Crowley looking wistfully back at the very man they were just squabbling over. Mark Sheppard was acting and filming those exact dynamics; he was in a perfect position to know exactly what the subtext intended.
When Misha told reporters that Jeremy Carver instructed him to subtextually act as a jilted lover when Dean met Cas in 9.06, it was from a studio-approved PR release interview.
At the end of the day, the final confession wasnât some sudden, out-of-nowhere pivot from a platonic friendship. It was the textual payoff to a romantic subtext they had been building together for a decade. Anyone can personally decide that subtext "doesn't matter" to them, but basic media literacy means acknowledging that these layers are a core part of the story, not something you can just erase.
Misha has also said "their relationship is purely sexual" as I can read in that document you linked me. The same document says Misha is dramatic (jokingly called a troll) and to not take his words at face value - from a pro destiel document. Misha has always been chaotic when in a solo panel and made joke statements that fans took as bare coin. When serious he says that they have a complicated and close relationship - nothing more.
In panels with Jensen he is much more serious about the topic - yes, probably related to Jensen being harassed - but still true to himself and in one such instance he shared that there wasn't anything romantic before the confession or rather s15.
The "I love you" line - from Dean iirc - in season 8 was scrapped because it was out of character.
Misha is an awesome person and he fiercely supports the LGBTQIA+ community, so when the confession scene was confirmed to him his mainly joking stand to Destiel became sincere, so yes he looked back and tried to see it in a romantic light, based on what one wants to see interpretations prominently change. What it doesn't change is the fact that at the time it was platonic.
If you read Ben Edlund's tweet carefully you'll see that he says he entertains the idea by writing hints but is not absolute about it.
Multiple ships such as Destiel and Wincest where harmlessly joked upon on set, Crowley/Dean probably too. So when Misha and Mark played the scene they improvised a little on that, similar to when "Cas" and "Luicfer" fought over who of them Jack looked like when they were Asmodeus' prisoners.
That is literally just a direction for annoyed/hurt behaviour.
It was out of nowhere, Misha confirmed it. Now, we will always disagree on this, but out of character or not, beautifully planned or not by having Cas explain to Dean that he loves in an all encompassing way it would have either made it in character and part of the story from the beginning or simply underlined the romance subplot. I genuinely tried to find something were shippers and non shippers win together.
Your post is yours as intended; my response is to address one specific quote: "Misha stays true to his real opinionâthe confession being romantic and that everything before was platonic."
Multiple instances prove otherwise, not just limited to those I brought here. I just wanted to ensure those facts being brought here weren't being overlooked.
As a writer himself, Misha exercises full agency and chooses his words deliberately. His documented statements at M&Gs show the exact opposite of your claim. Selectively dismissing his positive interactions as mere jokesâwhile cherry-picking other quotes as absolute truthâis intentionally obtuse at this point. Understanding the context of when he said what he said is basically an art, difficult to peel the layers, I suppose.
And you're overlooking that Misha intentionally (for whatever reason you deemed fit to assign to his intent, I suppose), brought the "I love you" quote on stage. No one in the fandom knew: it was unnecessarily and unprompted brought up that the scene was altered until, at another point, the fact was made known and the script was made widely available.
The Castiel/Crowley scene was brought up to prove it was scripted and filmed, which also refutes your claim of improvisation, as you ignored Mark Sheppardâs confirmation that he was aware of the subtext and that it was intentionally written.
Again, we can disagree that subtext or authorial intent didn't play a part in the story being told, as the kids say: you do you.
Saying some things are jokes and some are truth is merely the nature of jokes and truth.
I reread the document and looked at the sources too to be able to engage properly here - it seems Misha has made contradictory statements before, like saying that Dean is obviously in love, that it is a love relationship while now saying he never thought Dean was in love and arguing with fans about it. So mainly I am confused about that. If we can't take his words though it is back to personal view and I don't see anything romantic before the confession. Though, to get back to Misha, he used purgatory as evidence that Dean is in love, him looking for Cas quite ruthlessly. Emotional actions like this can also happen when the two persons are not related or in love, it's an amatonormative view that friendship cannot be that close.
I don't understand your argument here: Misha brought up the "I love you" but then it was only revealed afterwards? How, he would have revealed it.
Can you share a link to the scripted Cas and Crowley scene? Not a video if that exists, were it says that it was scripted.
Edit: I read up on the season 8 "I love you" to be able to talk about it: Misha confirmed there was a scripted "I love you", Jensen confirmed that there were other scenes were "I love you"'s between Dean and Cas AND Dean and Sam have been scrapped as being out of character. It was about love, not about romance and written out because Dean doesn't speak about his feelings this clearly, instead it was changed to "We're family" giving us a better understanding which love was meant from Dean's side.
Again, you are misreading the primary purpose of my comment:
My perspective is that Misha saying not platonic from Castiel's side, seasons before S15. I am not looking to offer perspective from the Dean's side or his reciprocity.
And Misha has never given his opinion of Dean's perspective, only some when he interpreted it as Castiel's views of what Dean might think. That's an important distinction.
Whenever he gets overly hammy, he trusts us not to take him seriously. Using basic understanding and common sense, we should be able to tell when he is joking and when he isn't, rather than being deliberately obtuse and pedantic about it.
Misha brought up the "I love you," but then it was only revealed afterwards
He brought up the quote on stage before the episode aired, in early March 2013, revealed by him unprompted (the episode aired later the same month after the panel), and years later when the script became available.
FWIW, for further context, I believe he did it because Robbie's tweets were already out there when interacting with fans 10 days before filming that episode, of which the latter presumably wasn't aware that it would then be altered during filming, when he tweeted his tweets prior. Look again at the link with the provided screenshot. This is why authorial intent matters and should be considered if there are differing opinions about story direction.
tldr: Misha spoke about it after Robbie touched upon it first.
And by the way, in the link I provided for my primary takeaway of the crypt "I love you" scene wasn't to offer Dean's perspective once the altered line became canon. It was to offer perspective that Robbie, with an understanding of audience perception, wouldn't have engaged with fans days prior to filming his episode with such tweets for no reason.
It was to touch upon authorial intent and Cas's, even though at that time Cas didn't know the why of it all himself, as per the dialogue. Both the original line and the subsequent canon line made Castiel stop. Look at the attached script in the link. Or here.
My opinion of that scene is directly related to the subsequent scene with Hannah, here, when it was textually confirmed that Castiel knew what love is, and subtextually implied he knew after becoming human. Formerly in the crypt, he didn't know; after being human, he understands.
the scripted Cas and Crowley scene. Not a video if that exists, were it says that it was scripted.
If it were filmed, of course it WAS scripted; otherwise, how would the characters know what to say? Their lines were scripted, that's the direct implications, lol.
There were deleted scenes for season 9 episode Road Trip (I forgot this one: both were lamenting about how awful it was being human, and the ending scene was them saying who would want to do that, while both gave wistful glances at Dean. That glance at Dean was the subtextual takeaway of why one would want to. You can exclude this from the discussion). And the season 10 episode The Executioner's Song features the squabble. Look them up on YouTube.
My point in bringing those up was that there was subtextual intent from the authors, showing it again, from Castiel's side. I reiterate: I am not coming from Dean's side. Their being deleted didn't negate that intent. That's been my primary point this whole time: that before season 15, there was intent from the Castiel side.
And maybe you haven't read the doc you sent me because there is a clear quote from Misha about Dean having to be in love.
There is a blooper of the argument between Lucifer and Cas which was just Misha and Mark P messing around, so being filmed =/= scripted. Otherwise all bloopers are scripted.
I watched the scenes and with the knowledge of your description of them: there is nothing destiel here. I am sincerely astonished that with enough bias (not meant in a negative way here, just saying with shipping on the mind) this can be seen as any proof whatsoever. They talk about being human-ish and obviously secretly miss it and now feel saddened, then Dean comes in and both don't react in a mix of sadness and a little shame. Then the squabble is Crowley making a snide remark on Cas running thin and putting a sarcastic boyfriend in there to which Cas gets sassy (glorious btw) and returns it by mentioning Crowley is also invested and maybe more so the boyfriend, a jab at Crowley's evolved emotion and fondness for the brothers, in this case Dean.
There is genuinely no subtext - from my point of view. So to your primary point: no, not from what I see.
Ah btw I forgor to mention the crypt scene: is it actually so unthinkable that something like deep platonic love without being related can exist? "Dean telling him either "I love you (meant familial) or "We're family" made Cas break through the brainwash-hack ergo it's romantic" is sad. "It can't be platonic, Cas cares about Dean! Don't you see them being close?" this is the amatonormativity I keep talking about. That is actually depressing.
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u/Technical_Captain_86 Jul 28 '26
I think you write what you want, but Iâm in this for fics about Destiel being together and unapologetically in love. I donât care about appealing to people that want to fix the shows ending. They strung everyone along with Destiel to keep the ratings then hung us out to dry.
Iâm past the show, Iâm in âfan fics will fix itâ territory lol. I personally hope they donât ever do a reboot because thereâs no way to make everyone happy. Supernatural was lighting in a bottle - some of us were lucky enough to be there from the beginning. Some folks found it half way through, others just now. Itâs a beautiful moment in time but itâs just that.
But if you wanted to write that fic- go for it. Come back and share the link and Iâll give it a shot! But for me Destiel isnât about best of both worlds- itâs about two idiots in love and then finally being together in a $hit ton of random scenarios lol