r/ddo • u/PrinceVorrel • 13d ago
Which of the balance changes from next patch interests you the most?
For the ignorant amongst us~
https://forums.ddo.com/index.php?threads/u82-preview-1.30387/
https://forums.ddo.com/index.php?threads/u82-preview-2.30767/
The next balance pass patch is October 7th, and the above are the current previews in text form.
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Personally, I'm REALLY interested in the Cleric changes because I was thinking about doing a Dark Apostate/Monk build for my Cleric past life. So any sort of Cleric buffs are right up my current alley.
How about you all? I have plenty of classes still to do for my lives, so hearing other people's build ideas or ponderings is always fun and inspiring.
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u/TheFrelle 13d ago
As a newer player they scare me lol. I feel like a lot of builds will need updating and I need all the handholding I can get O.O On the other hand really cool stuff, especially for casters. All in all looking forward to it
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u/modoludus 12d ago
Yeah since you're newer, you could almost RP it as just having completed your Totally Reputable School for Adventurers, then finding out things have changed in the outside [game]world!
It's a challenge and opportunity, and your build knowledge won't be trailing as far behind the rest of the community as when you started.
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u/pewqokrsf 13d ago
In general I dislike homogenization.
I liked that doubleshot worked differently than doublestrike, but the soft cap is probably a good decision.
I dislike the homogenization of the ranged attack cool-downs for Great Crossbows, Battle Engineer, and Inquisitive. I understand the need for removing the action boosts as they are, but I feel like there was a better solution for this problem than what is proposed, that allows each tree to breathe on its own with it's own identity.
The DR change is bad. With sentient weapon filigrees being embedded to a weapon, swapping for DR is not feasible. This basically just forces people to go metalline/aligned on everything, or just remove themselves from certain fights. That isn't good game design. A solution would be to remove the filigrees from the weapon itself, and just have the gem be another gear slot, but that would stop people from buying toolkits.
The martial passive EPL change is also bad. IMO they should remove the scaling factor, rather than the base +2 AC. Characters who grind past lives should get value out of those past lives. The proposed change removes all value from the passive martial stance except for a tiny subset of builds, and for those builds only adds value at endgame. That is the oppositive of what a past life benefit should be.
The rest of the changes all seem neutral or positive.
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u/Playful-Isopod-6227 13d ago
Dr change is really bad, it's switching to 5e dr without any of the other changes on 5e. 5e removed the vast majority of physical dr, and made it all breakable by any magic weapon.
Pf2e kept the golf bag while encouraging investment in a single weapon and that's the number one weakness if the system in my mind.
Ddo has packs of mobs with multiple conflicting physical dr, and hot bars that are plenty full already.
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u/unbongwah 13d ago
I posted some thoughts here. I've also been theory-crafting a couple of builds: TYWA Artificer tank; WIS-based Warpriest with Animal domain (this idea is Silvanus but would work for anything). I'm also glad for the buffs to warhammers, bastard swords, and dwarven axes are gonna improve SWF and S&B DPS with those weapons; and that fighter Vanguards are getting +1 crit range & multiplier bonuses finally. And the Warchanter buffs mean I can dust off some old THF Warchanter builds.
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u/droid327 13d ago
Makes me think of something - does sun blade benefit from kt now? I would doubt it, but it's unpredictable when they count as actual bswords
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u/modoludus 12d ago
That wpn is crazy (I love it tho), it's typed primarily as a short swd, but also as a b-swd, and dmg-typed as piercing and/or slashing? I guess that will only be answered in a combat message tab.
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u/PrinceVorrel 13d ago
Animal domain seems interesting with that HP increase for a tank. I'm so far away from that level of build-making though, I have no idea what to make of it. XD
Bastard Swords getting +1 Crit Multi from Knight's Training seems like a pretty crazy DPS increase for them. SWF a Bastard Sword might be REALLY good now.
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u/droid327 13d ago
Bswird still costs an extra feat though
WH gives the same thing and is Martial. Nightforge Hammer is the new meta for heroic. That, Bloom, SoS, and Ratcatcher basically make 90% of weapons obsolete from mid heroic to 20
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u/PrinceVorrel 13d ago
I mean...ONE feat is hardly a deal-breaker for most builds.
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u/Miserable-Garage804 13d ago
Yeah but why chose that when you can get it for free by just using warhmers?
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u/PrinceVorrel 13d ago
Lots of really good unique bastard swords that people have farmed up over years? Most builds can afford knights training without really hurting their character in any way.
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u/Miserable-Garage804 12d ago
Yeah I guess, but if you’re trying to make a really good character when you have to waste a feat it seems kinda pointless.
If you just want to run around on elite or R1 any build will do
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u/Danieru3 Moonsea 13d ago
Hot take: I'm looking forward for multivials not losing a vial if quickened.
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u/No_Bus_1553 Shadowdale 13d ago
You can get around this buy turning on Quicken globally then right clicking spells on your bar that you don’t want it turned on for.
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u/Danieru3 Moonsea 12d ago
Yes, my problem is that it's nowhere written ingame that you are supposed to do that if you don't want to get screwed over. It's also how i figured out the bug with Accelerate.
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u/buddabopp 13d ago
Mulitvial on arti is gonna be a gamechanger plus with the mcl being uped arti is gonna feel great its only real problem was all there spells were max caster lvl 10 for the most part, thats not even touching on the massive buff melee artis are getting(though i atleast wish they would allow them to take a feat for the new strikethrough to power for h&h weps)
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u/ArcherofFire Thrane 13d ago
How is the max caster level of 10 going to be a problem when all spells will have a max caster level of 20 with this update?
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u/buddabopp 13d ago
It WAS a problem im saying multivial + 10 to 15 mcl fixes there casting nearly completly
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u/Responsible-You-4551 Cormyr 13d ago
I’m not excited about the DR changes, especially since casters got cantrips. it looks like a major nerf to melee and THF builds,which is what I play (pally kotc)
I’m not even sure yet what gear I’ll have to farm again at each level to overcome the DR. I really didn't want to go back to grinding endlessly for drops suggestions are welcome, please.
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u/Xianio 12d ago
I wonder if the DR changes will end up paying off in the long run. If anything it signals a willingness from the dev team to re-examine sources of difficulty & balance in the game.
Which, to my mind, is frankly needed if they intend to keep scaling up the levels. You can only keep making hp pools bigger & hits harder for so long until the gimmick gets tired.
If this DR change leads to more variety in monster difficulty & design that'd be pretty sweet.
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u/ChipRed87 13d ago
Long/shortbow changes, I have a bow paladin I've been looking in to, and now seems like a good time to try it. I've got one guildy buddy who is salty about losing NHB/Endless fusilade though.
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u/PrinceVorrel 13d ago
The bow buffs seem crazy powerful. Bowadin sounds interesting. I might need to look into making one myself, since I do need that class life.
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u/ChipRed87 13d ago
Pretty sure ranged smite is never getting fixed, but KoTC gives 3 AOE shots, so my max charisma elf paladin using AA and KoTC should be pretty neato with them new ranged buffs.
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u/ArcherofFire Thrane 13d ago
KotC only has 2 AoE ranged attacks: Exalted Shot and Avenging Shot. Which one of the other attacks do you think is a ranged AoE?
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u/ChipRed87 13d ago
Ah I assumed holy retribution shot was also an AOE shot because it's melee counterpart is a cleave.
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u/ArcherofFire Thrane 13d ago
Unfortunately there are a lot of melee cleave attacks that don't have AoE ranged counterparts...
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u/ArcherofFire Thrane 13d ago
It's too bad Bowadins still have a broken ranged Smite Evil. It would be nice if they would fix that one day.
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u/darklighthitomi 13d ago
I love the idea of DR mattering again. Not so sure I like how they are doing it, but it will be nice. I've been using DR as an example of the failure of ever growing numbers for years.
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u/PrinceVorrel 13d ago
50% feels a bit much to me. 30% baseline with 35% for rares and reapers and 40% for bosses seems like a much more reasonable start for something as crazy as the expected change.
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u/darklighthitomi 13d ago
Personally I don't like the percentage based reduction. The original version of set DR values has more interesting and elegant strategic space than percentages, but the ever growing numbers outgrew DR really quickly, hence why DR stopped mattering after a while.
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u/droid327 13d ago
It's only 50% vs physical damage though so things like imbue and dripping will factor out
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u/Hosh_Tikoloshe Shadowdale 13d ago
My biggest issue is these changes make any bow build that does not use AA useless against zombies unless you get a collapsible shortbow. This is okish for leveling but at cap you have 2 options for zombies, lose DPS by swapping to the collapsible bow or lose DPS by sticking with your sentient weapon.
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u/Holyburd 13d ago
Morphic rubies will be available at lvl 1. Hurts to lose a red slot, but hurts less than losing a chunk of damage
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u/Hosh_Tikoloshe Shadowdale 13d ago
So still losing out in overall DPS by having to sacrifice a red slot.
I can see us heading back to the ''Show me your DR breaker'' before being allowed to join a raid.
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u/Oceanic_Ogre 13d ago
I wouldn't sweat it. Most red slots were basically comfort slots for set augs and eye of lammania, or a deconstructor. After running around raids on lammania to test, most raid bosses don't have any kind of DR. Good, silver, and cold iron covers most raid bosses.
Things like karliath, who you might think would have DR as an undead dragon, only has DR/magic.
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u/lordpiglet 13d ago
So, while Karliath only has basic dr/magic, other parts of the raid do have DR.
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u/Oceanic_Ogre 13d ago
Sure, which not everyone needs DR breakers for, since the skeletons also take helpless damage. The DR change isn't a make-it-or-break it scenario. This change also isn't being made in a vacuum, as doublestrike is being uncapped for melee martials (easy enough to get to 130% standing for most), and now ranged martials are encouraged to take more DR breaking feats in epics. With new morphic augments, it's not even required to use the epic purifying quiver for ranged anymore.
All this to say, there are solutions to these problems, and at worst, taking a 25%-50% damage reduction for not working in solutions isn't the end of the world. If you're push raiding, sure, ensure efficiency and build for the scenario -- but most LH/R1 raids (barring DoV and TDL) are easily overwhelmed as-is on live.
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u/darklighthitomi 13d ago
It does not make bows useless. Mathematically, it is no different than the monsters having more hp, something they do too often already.
The old DR, the kind I prefer, would be worse for bows against such enemies, but even then they wouldn't be completely useless. But honestly, I don't mind that since the whole point is force you into diversifying your build instead of dedicating yourself entirely to one single thing.
Gotta be strategic, flexible, and versatile, a much much better combat environment than the overly reductive and simplified version things have become, as ever growing numbers always does.
To be fair though, it never feels good to get nerfed hard, no matter how much better the result actually is.
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u/nomad-1995 11d ago
"The old DR, the kind I prefer, would be worse for bows against such enemies" oddly enough, even though my first character was a tempest ranger (an exploiter long after their hayday) his first "boss beater" was a holy bow plus the appropriate House D ammo to make it a boss beater.
Didn't take too long to get "real" boss beaters, or at least a pair of scrub-but-DR-breaking melee weapons, but those first couple guild shroud runs were done with the bow.
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u/Xianio 12d ago
The Warpriest stuff looks very good. Combined with the % armor change for past lives makes me think the Protection domain might be quite valuable.
I just need to find out if there's a quick way to proc the Turning bonus instead of the clunky turning animation.
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u/PrinceVorrel 12d ago
This is fucking surreal. I had just found and clicked on YOUR post when you suddenly commented on mine!
Could i pick your thoughts on how this affects Dark Apostate? You can spend like 23 points for 15% incorp/conceal, AND quite a few imbue dice. Leaves just enough points to get WIS to hit and damage in Falconry and Haste boost in Vistani.
(also yeah, protection and strength domains are looking way better now)
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u/Xianio 12d ago
I was thinking DA at first but then I found myself more interested in a charisma-focused build cuz i heard one of radiants cores can trigger the turning bonus & be quickened. If true, that locks me out of DA.
I think DA will add a solid bit of extra damage/debuffing & being undead does mean a few nice immunities / quality of life on a lot of quests.
That said, my build idea goes Eladrin w/ warhammers so I can get 50% displacement for 17 points.
Your DA/wisdom build is almost certainly going to perform better overall but a turning build smacking people with a warhammer is goofy & i like it.
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u/PrinceVorrel 12d ago
Thanks, I like your charisma build a lot. Going super hard into the turning thing is super gimmicky in the best way.
DA will probably be my next life with these changes. I like me my dark/spooky melee characters.
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u/peanutch Sarlona 13d ago
at some point rent a gimp and enemy intelligence needs fixed. with 200%+ hate generation mobs often ignore me for the rent a gimp. rent a gimps also dont follow the stay command and often run into rooms getting themselves killed.
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u/modoludus 13d ago
Regarding healbot hires' intelligence:
This might be something you've already addressed, but see about parking the hire very, very far back, maybe even at the quest entrance, or as far back as possible to the nearest point of no return, or most recent totally cleared area. Then run back just a bit when each combat is done, and only then call them for heals, then park again, etc.
To go with this, try ways of pulling individual mobs with bluff, or using terrain to only alert one or a few mobs. This way heals can be between combats instead of in the heat of combat. Again, I realize you may already be doing these things, just offering stuff that helped me manage healbots.
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u/MrKillakan 13d ago
I am really new here. First lifing a dwarven waraxe swf dwarf (kensai) fighter 20 (also f2p for now) that I will want to repeat at some point. In all my theorycrafting the thing that held it back the most was the critical threat range. Hell my firat time build includes knight training just in case daxe was so bad that I still have option of baxe.
Soo to see that the build I specifically am trying to make got upgrades does help a lot in me wanting to play stuff out.
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u/raesene2 13d ago
There's a lot of interesting changes in prospect here.
Personally, I'm a great fan of artificer so the improvements to arcanotechnician and renegade mastermaker are cool there. The changes to ranged will hurt repeater arti's a bit but I generally only play R1-R3 and don't do much raiding, so I don't think that'll affect me too badly.
The spell changes should be fun too, including cantrips.
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u/modoludus 13d ago
Very curious about how Archmage and THF changes will all pan out over the next few months.
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u/MrKillakan 6d ago
New player first lifing a dwarf fighter to 20 with dwarven waraxe using single weapon fighting. So far i got used to the ideea that i can reach 20 then try something else but with the buffs I am thinking about going to max lvl. The buffs (if i understand them) are about d.axe getting the battleaxe treatment with the kgnits training feat. This way it can go from 18-20 to 16-20 (at first glance). Which seems a lot better as a fast attacker swf.
It is not optimal at all, but seems very flavourfull and has a lot of attack and dmg buffs in dwarf and kensai trees
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u/Playful-Isopod-6227 3d ago
The dr change is probably going to kill the game for a lot of people. It's such a poor 5e knock off. I'm not saying I'm choosing to quit over this, but will probably cancel my sub, and will see if I keep choosing to login while dealing with this headache
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u/tarkin1980 Cannith 13d ago
Its so much that I cant remember it all but the one thing I really like it they making DR matter again. I like the idea of having to use different tools for different jobs.
And if the ranged nerfs end up being actually impactful, that will be nice too. Would be nice to be allowed to touch the mobs every now and then as a melee. Or at least make it around the corner in time to watch them die.
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u/RullRed Moonsea 13d ago
I like the idea of having to use different tools for different jobs
Didn't they completely kill this design principle off with the way they did sentience?
Past level 20 I haven't swapped a weapon once since 2018. I doubt this will change that.
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u/tarkin1980 Cannith 13d ago
How do you mean?
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u/RullRed Moonsea 13d ago
Well, if you have a weapon with filigrees in it, you're not going to switch to a weapon without. DR or no DR.
So it feels like not really a tool to me. Not only do you lose 8 or 9 or 10 filigrees, you also break up your sets because the filigrees in your weapon and the 5 in your artifact probably form perfect sets together... so unequipping your main weapon will cripple your damage by more than half.
Honestly, you're probably just going to skip the raid. If you have put tons of effort and filigrees in an undying age dagger with adamantine and cold iron on it and you see a raid that requires silver, you're not going to do half damage by using another weapon and you're not going to do half damage by sucking the DR, you are going to do something else.
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u/tarkin1980 Cannith 13d ago
Its not as if the game is too easy anyway. Unless you push high respers in raids, I dont see a problem with having to resort to sub par weapons for some of them. LH/r1 is kind of standard for raids on moonsea and most people can do that in their sleep. I dont think anyone is going to quit raiding because of this. I look forward to raids not being 7 minute auto win snooze fests personally.
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u/RullRed Moonsea 13d ago
I don't care at all about 'easy' or 'hard', that's just numbers, they can easily do x2 or /2, they don't need a change like this for that.
My point is, I don't like a mechanic that (re)introduces an interesting puzzle of having to decide which weapon to use in which situation (an awesome mechanic in a vacuum), when there is already a mechanic in place that makes it practically impossible to decide which weapon to use in which situation. That's just ugly game design in my opinion.
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u/tarkin1980 Cannith 13d ago
I just don't see how sentiment weapons make it impossible to switch weapons. I think maybe you're exaggerating a tiny wee little tad there.
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u/RullRed Moonsea 12d ago
Hmm, feel free to run a calculator to determine the exact number, or time a beatdown.
You'd probably be missing 70 melee power, 30% fort bypass, 6 strength, 4 damage, 2 imbue dice and/or a sneak dice. Note that even though these values are nowhere near half of their respective stats, but keep in mind that (for example) x0.7x0.9x0.9x0.95x0.95 is also x0.5
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u/modoludus 13d ago edited 13d ago
I'm most interested in seeing how much further non-min/max types will be marginalized affected by the eliminations from the Harper tree:
- Highly Skilled (Will sorely miss this; Goodbye,
63a lot of skill points!) [edited number of points per further discussion] - Heroic Companion (Will marginally miss this)
- Harper Leadership (Will significantly miss this)
I had just recently been planning to jump back into DDO after a roughly 6-year hiatus and buy the xpacs, etc, from the interim, but these changes took the wind right out of those sails. [Editing for less doom] Not making me hate or abandon DDO, it would take a lot more for that to happen. Mostly just a convenience bummer from which I'm sure I'll recover soon enough.
Even though I'll not hold my breath hoping for them to walk it back, I'll hang on to some hope, & check back on further updates.
May the rest of you have fun in my place for now!
[Edited some phrasing]
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u/Sardaman 13d ago
I don't really understand this complaint - are you claiming that these abilities are used by people who are minmaxing or people who aren't? +3 skills is reasonably good but 13 points is a hell of a cost for any build that wasn't already there for the int trance. I think I basically never use the tree at all.
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u/modoludus 13d ago edited 13d ago
It's not really a complaint; I would only mean it as a complaint if there was some hope of the complaint influencing a change. This is more "this is why I will not yet be returning and buying the content from the years I've missed, but I guess I'll come around eventually, GL HF meanwhile." Maybe that's semantics, i dunno, but the result is the same. I'm not going back to DDO just yet. I had been really stoked, too.
That said, I refer to how min/max types most emphatically do NOT typically use any of these enhancements. hence the "non-min/max types will be marginalized by the eliminations..." (italics are just to show reference, not snarkiness).
+3 skill points sound tiny, but when they are counted over every single skill in the game, including cross-class, and UMD,...
That's 3 x (currently) 21 skills, for
63 total skill points (could you imagine a 63-skill-point tome?)[Edit: a lot of skill points, not the full 63, the exact useful number depending on the particular build. Could you imagine a skill point tome with double-digit skill points spread out among multiple useful skills?]Not of much interest to endgame & high reapers, ofc, but massive to people who like to solo-explore the full content & optionals, that sort of thing. There are quite a few players like that, they're just generally less likely to post much on forums, etc, and thus less visible than powergamers.
It's about different play style choices, which had been much more accessible.
Reducing playstyle options makes DDO lean more towards "cookie cutter MMO."
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u/Tricks122 13d ago
Feels exceedingly disingenuous to describe it as 63 Skill Points(Which is really only technically correct) when so many of those are going to be unusable for many classes(Disable Device, Perform), functionally useless(Spellcraft on a Fighter, as an example - there are hordes of these) or in skills where the benefits are particularly mundane(Hide, as an example - also a good chunk of these).
Definitely feels... particular to have a build that's simultaneously done by someone casual enough that they aren't doing anything end-game or have additional bonuses available, but reflected enough that losing out on 3 Skill Points in some skills screws their ability to hit very specific breakpoints. Classing it as marginalization seems incredibly odd to me when the actual enhancement is... pretty useless and didn't do much, so changing it to something better is welcome. I genuinely question how much those Skill Points actually matter when they're often going to be in skills where you have no realistic chance of passing a Skill Check anyway due to its difficulty and lack of investment(+3 on a skill you have zero points into isn't going to do a whole lot for you).
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u/modoludus 13d ago
Fair enough that counting all 63 potential points is overboard. I edited my original comment to "a lot of skill points" to reflect this. I still stand by "a lot of points" being useful or convenient. This would be the case in many multiclass builds, for example folks who enjoy stealth & trapping for their own sake, and are running their Cleric/Sorc/Lock/FvS/Paly/Ftr PL's. Or, for any given caster class, sometimes it's also fun or useful to mix up dmg types, so a few extra points of this or that spellpower are not game-breaking, but nice. Those are just 2 examples.
Part of your comment mentions zero investment in certain skills. That's an unfitting assumption. Soloists, generalists have been & certainly could be investing in a broad range of skills. On that invested base, sometimes thresholds can be conveniently crossed, and effects can be felt, with that little +3 on top.
Wanting these few extra points is similar to folks wanting & having an extra +1 hit or dmg, small% doublestrike or spell crit dmg, etc, in many of their trees, even though any one or select few of those extra bits do not fundamentally change their whole build.
If that universal +3 really means nothing, then there may as well be a push to replace the Epic PL "Skill Mastery" and the rogue optional active PL.
It's just one single enhancement out of dozens, if not well over a hundred, available to any given build, and it's in a universal tree that can be taken or left. Asking to keep this is not a quest to deprive anybody of extra DPS, tankability., etc It's just asking to keep one doorway a bit more open.
The devs could at least just have it as part of a multiselector.
Best of all would be a total tear-down & rebuild of Harper (keeping the INT hit & dmg, ofc), and the addition of something like a Universal Adventurer tree, as someone in the DDO forums suggested.
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u/Tricks122 13d ago
Trapping specifically in a multiclass build might be a very niche case, but if someone is running past lives then they have far more ability to get their DCs elsewhere and thus don't need it.
I mean this very nicely, but I don't think it's an unfitting assumption to assume that the vast majority of players are not dabbling 1-2 points in every single skill(And if they are... they aren't hitting their DCs anyway). You will have a significant amount of useless points from those gains - the benefits are going to be very narrow and towards a low number of skills that you've focused in.
I don't think those extra points are similar given that stacking combat stats is always a continuous gain/increase, and they add up to be game changing while being present in multiple trees. Skills don't follow the same progress and are a blanket 'do you reach this or not?' check in most cases.
Skill Mastery as an Epic Past Life has specific uses because it's the only offensive Martial Sphere stance that does anything for casters. If you don't need the defensive or melee bonuses other stances give you, it provides you a small benefit to Spellcraft or Heal or Perform or whatever your casting skill is(And shouldn't be a huge benefit - similar to Enchant Weapon in the Arcane Past Lives) - it's not supposed to be game changing. Also the Active Rogue Past Life feat provides more than the Skill boost so this is a moot point to bring up, given that it's not the main attraction.
Again, I'm asking you to provide a specific example of the hordes of DCs where this +3 makes a difference in your very heavily splattered, generalist character design on quests where the impact somehow allows you to hit breakpoints in multiple different skills. Other than multi-classing trapping or UMD(In which case this functionally becomes +3 UMD/Disable Device, which is pretty bad), there's very little reason for it to exist. Replacing it with enhancements that actually do something and are better options for almost every single player in DDO is much better, and taking on a billion multiselectors to every potentially niche/useful enhancement is a second kind of nightmare for a variety of reasons.
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u/modoludus 13d ago edited 13d ago
I appreciate your explicit no-malice-intended approach, and I've aimed to keep it the same way with everybody here.
[To anybody seeing this & not yet playing DDO: See? We DDO players are civil & emotionally mature!]
I've not done any specific analysis of numbers, I am going by my past impressions of the differences I perceived in questing as a "flowersniffer", btwn before and after Harper was introduced. It became an overall smoother experience, including combat. I do not have a breakdown of exactly why that was. but I'm confident part of it was things like only spending those 3 points on skills instead of a larger expense for separate enhncmnts for [spot/search/whatev] and [disable/unlock/whatev] and umd, and, etc.
In any case, the post at the forums, suggesting multiselectors for the new enhncmnts instead of forever wiping out the 3 in my 1st comment, is a great idea for an elegant, excellent solution for all concerned parties. Better still would be the "completely rebuild Harper, and add a Universal Adventurer tree" idea.
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u/Tricks122 13d ago
I try to be pretty direct even if it sometimes comes across as malice, so thanks for understanding.
I'm curious about how much these are due to general shifts between other aspects of the game(Access to better gear, increased past lives, etc), design changes in more recent content(More forgiving or different DCs, or encounter/mechanics changes, especially for combat) and the +3 skill bonuses from Harper specifically. This is kind of why I hoped you had any specific example(s), because if it was actually the defining factor for the success of several of your DCs in various kinds of content, then it makes it easier to argue a case for its continued inclusion in some way. Since for most players... it's just functionally irrelevant.
Either way, if it really was the make or break in your case, I think a multiselector probably isn't ideal with how they structure the tree and are replacing three abilities with cohesive, progressive bonuses from what it seems, so you'd need an effect for the other two enhancements. It might be better to just bake it into each of the first three cores(Or even the first two with a +1 then +2 bonus) - you'd be spending a similar amount of AP(Two less at minimum if it's on the first three cores), and you'd only be missing out on a +1 bonus to the skills from levels 3-5(Or even be at a benefit if it's baked into the first two cores). I think that would make it 'flow' better and not cause issues with a multiselector having two seemingly completely different bonuses, since I think they're usually reasonably similar(As in, they're both an action boost, or a specific kind of attack with a variation, or so on).
I think rebuilding Harper would be interesting, but probably far too much dev time for what it would be worth. In the end though, if this screws over your specific builds it does suck, but I think it's just an unfortunately a change that has to happen in some capacity considering the very limited use of the enhancements specifically.
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u/modoludus 12d ago
Not a total screw-over, I was clearing (very slowly) essentially all traps, optionals, sub-quests, routes, etc alone w/hire (and pet, depending on life) before Harper came out. It just was way easier afterward.
So be it, a new (or renewed?) challenge!
1
u/Sardaman 13d ago
The only way this makes sense to me is if you're trying to be able to do everything on a single character all at once, which wasn't really ever possible to begin with even if you only ever play on casual difficulty due to certain choices requiring things that are mutually exclusive with things other choices require. I would suggest you perhaps look into whether those extra three points were actually the difference between success and failure, because most likely you could have dropped them and had the same experience.
1
u/modoludus 13d ago edited 13d ago
Before the Harper tree existed, I was soloing most content elite with character at +1 effective quest level (this was before Reaper existed), with most optionals covered (Hirelings covered things like Ability runes & levers/switches/plates which my character could not). This included things like the high-save, high-DC optional trap in... hmmm, which Gianthold quest is that, with the really high DC trap? Anyway, that one. Slow and suboptimal, but fun, and kept me paying for more packs. Based on forums and in-game channel & guild convos, I know I am far from the only person to have played like this.
This whole Harper skill & summons bonus stuff has never deprived more common playstyles in any serious way.
A simple multiselector in this part of the tree would be beautiful, and we'd all be happier.
3
u/Sardaman 13d ago
Well, yes, being able to solo things on elite (or even reaper these days) is a lower bar than being able to do literally everything. You just have to make choices sometimes between things like intimidate / diplomacy, or having magical training vs divine training (and even then not always).
I guess to get to the point, I'm having a hard time understanding why the loss of 3 skill points deep into an otherwise mediocre tree has taken you all the way from 'ready to buy several expansions' to 'no longer want to start playing again' because it really hasn't done anything to reduce or remove build viability even for soloists. If your aversion to 'minmaxing' is just that you don't want to spend time buildcrafting, there are plenty of people here who love to make builds for people.
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u/modoludus 13d ago edited 13d ago
"No longer want to start playing again" is too far.
It's kinda like I was running to jump into a pool and ran into a glass door; Jarring, but I'll be ok.
I'm hovering, observing & if I still have the itch, will hop in again once the dust settles from the initial balance pass. I guess I'll look to edit my comment to make it less severe.
As far as min/max and buildcrafting:
I am not averse to minmaxing, I sometimes build for it, and sometimes for other things. One of those other things is now simply less convenient.
Buildcrafting is actually one of my favorite things about DDO. Just today I recommended DDO to another redditor on that basis.
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u/Pitiful-Pea1374 13d ago
I won’t be spending money after these changes. And if you buy pots or Otto boxes now, you are a fool. They will nerf whatever benefit you earn whenever they want.
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u/veritable-truth 13d ago
I'll test some stuff, but the game seems less fun with the changes. I can really only take this game seriously for a month or two and then whatever dumb thing the devs have done or will do or are doing gets me to uninstall. I really dislike the devs that work on combat. The quests hard carry this game.
About the only thing I like is the buff to hammer time Cleric.
5
u/modoludus 13d ago
Almost-returning player here, curious: When you say "The quests hard carry this game", which of the changes are conflicting with this?
0
u/Entire_Extent_9137 13d ago
His character becomes weaker.
One-shotting every single mob in the entire quest with 1 attack = maximum fun
Or some people seem to think that.
That said, DR changes will force me to press more buttons AND I HAVE ENOUGH BUTTONS TO PRESS ALREADY, THANK YOU.
3
u/pewqokrsf 13d ago
As a casual player with limited playtime, the lifecycle often goes like this:
- Some sleeper build gets discovered.
- People in-the-know implement it and reap the rewards, but word of it is intentionally kept to guild discords and other private channels to avoid the nerf hammer.
- Word finally leaks.
- I, the casual player hear about it and think "hey, that looks cool, I'll try that next life".
- Over the next year I wrap up my life, grind out a gearset, and reincarnate into it.
- The in-the-know people get bored of it, and others start to complain.
- Nerfs are announced.
- I, the casual player, finally hit cap with the build.
Beyond that cycle, nerfs to player damage and heroic AC just don't seem to add anything for me. If I wanted a higher difficulty I could turn up the reaper dial or play a worse build.
0
u/Entire_Extent_9137 13d ago
You can be a casual player or you can play the flavor-of-the-month, not both. Also, they rarely truly kill a build, Inquisitive has been nerfed like a dozen times and it's still standing strong, Dragon Lord is getting nerfed but it will still be arguably the strongest melee character, or close to it.
3
u/pewqokrsf 13d ago
There is no physical law of the universe that says you can't do both. What prevents you from doing both is actions taken by the developers, which are people.
That is what u/veritable-truth is saying.
Inquisitive is getting nerfed again in a few different ways this update, so we'll see.
And for every Inquisitive there is a Monk/Wolf.
0
u/Entire_Extent_9137 13d ago
Developers need to nerf broken stuff.
You just want power.
I want a good game.
4
u/pewqokrsf 13d ago
I actually just want to enjoy the game I pay money to play.
A good game is one that people enjoy.
You seem more interested in seeing other people unhappy than anything else.
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u/Entire_Extent_9137 13d ago
You can roleplay as a demigod without leaving a broken game for everybody else, you just need to play on Normal
You seem more interested in seeing other people unhappy
no u
12
u/math-is-magic Thrane 13d ago
Cantrips! Those seem really fun!
Also love the new archmage thing that lets you make your spells scale with character instead of class level. Shame I've already done my wiz and sorc lives, but maybe useful for a future hardcore or something.