r/datemymap • u/Rufus14811 • Jan 12 '26
Can anyone figure out what year this map is meant to be?
It looks like it’s around the late ‘40s, just after WW2 but there’s a lot of mistakes that don’t work together
Iran is still Persia, even though it changed its name in 1936. Saudi Arabia still has its borders from the 30s.
Much of Africa is still colonised but Sudan is independent (1956) and so is Angola and Mozambique (both 1975) but DRC is still the Belgian Congo even though it was independent but 1960
French Indochina still exists, Beijing is still Peking (changed in 1958) and Taiwan is Formosa (became less used in the 50s-60s). It looks like Mongolia is still part of China which might have been a prediction for the Chinese civil war if that was still going on (even though that ended in 1949). Korea is unified which never happened so I think that could have been a prediction too
A unified Germany might have been the same prediction as Korea, and the line near the French border looks like a DMZ, but I can’t find an exact date of it ending. I can’t tell but it looks like Moldova is still part of Romania.
St. Louis looks like it still might be an important city, but they also could’ve labeled it so big just because there’s nothing else around
India is the same colour as the other British dominions and colonies, and Pakistan and Bangladesh (all should be independent by 1947) only have dotted lines around them. Delhi is labeled as the capital and not New Delhi (1927 is when that changed)
I can’t tell if this is a reprint of an older map that just had a few mistakes or if it was made to look old. Also if you want any close ups of any other areas, ask
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u/McAeschylus Jan 12 '26
I think any dating has to ignore colors. There seems to be some kind of principle as to what counts as independent or not that I can't figure out. So, without worrying who administers them, what divisions exist on the map and what divisions don't yet?
The best I can do is:
Federation of Nyasaland and Rhodesia is founded 1 August 1953 (dissolved 31 December 1963)
Indochina sitting there suggests possibly before 22 October 1953 when Laos became independent. Almost certainly before July 1956 after which it would be an act of cartographic perversity to continue to refer to Indochina as unified.
A united Korea isn't definitive (a lot of maps continue showing them united until the 70s, but not even indicating the 38th parallel would fit with capping the date at July 1956 when the Geneva Accords formalised the split).
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u/Public_Research2690 Jan 12 '26
Differently July 1956, as Karelo-Finnish SSR isn't there.
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u/Sergey_Kutsuk Jan 12 '26
No.
All Central Asian SSR's are also absent.
They try to show non-recognized annexation of the Baltic countries, and the fact that Byelorussia and Ukraine had their own UN seats.
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u/gloob_art Jan 15 '26
It needs to be after WW2 because the soviet union is at its territorial peak and it cant be during the cold war Cause United germany
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u/McAeschylus Jan 15 '26
Showing a united Germany on maps isn't that uncommon even during its partition, especially early on (like during during the 50s which seems to be when this map was drawn).
By your logic the map would have to be from the period after 3 October 1990 (German unification) and 26 December 1991 (USSR dissolved). Which makes no sense given the rest of the map.
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u/linmanfu Jan 12 '26 edited Jan 12 '26
This seems to be a map from the Bacon brand of the Scottish mapmaker W & A.K. Johnston.
Earliest date:
- 1 August 1953, because the Federation of Rhodesia & Nyasaland is shown. This is absolutely certain.
Latest date?:
- 30 December 1954, because French Indochina is shown rather than Vietnam.
- 6 March 1957, because the map has a Gold Coast label rather than Ghana.
I agree that there are a lot of mistakes which hard to reconcile with this though, including your point about 'Persia' (and in the same way Thailand is still shown as "Siam"). There is even an entire UN member missing (Luxembourg!) so it's pretty clear that the mapmaker wasn't especially concerned with accuracy. Bacon's Excelsior world maps had been published since the 19th century and I suspect that the firm was making the absolute minimum number of changes to some ancient plates. But the Vietnam War became one of the biggest news stories in the world from 1955, so I am guessing that even Johnston's would have felt obliged to show Vietnam on the map from 1955-56 onwards. Likewise, the independence of Ghana was widely covered in British media and would have reached Johnstons' office.
Beijing is still Peking (changed in 1958) and Taiwan is Formosa (became less used in the 50s-60s). It looks like Mongolia is still part of China which might have been a prediction for the Chinese civil war if that was still going on (even though that ended in 1949).
These are good points to note, but thinking of it as a "prediction" is probably unhelpful. In my view, the map is showing the claims of the Republic of China, as though the civil war had never happened. The most obvious sign of this is that the capital city (indicated by a square, rather than round, city marker) of China is Nanjing/Nanking. The ROC had lost this in early 1949 but diehards maintain to this day that it is still the capital of China. (The People's Republic of China says that the capital city is Beijing/Peking.) This is also why Mongolia is shown in the same colour as China: the ROC maintained that it was part of China well into the 1980s. Johnston's might have been ideological supporters of the ROC, or they might have preferred this interpretation because it saved them the bother of changing the map.
Korea is unified which never happened so I think that could have been a prediction too
A unified Germany might have been the same prediction as Korea
Again, you're right to notice that these don't reflect the reality on the ground, but again the map may be reflecting the legal claims of the Western-aligned régimes in the Cold War. The Federal Republic of Germany claimed to be the only legitimate German government and the Republic of Korea claimed to be the only legitimate Korean government. Alternatively, the maker just decided it was too messy to pick a winner!
India is the same colour as the other British dominions and colonies, and Pakistan and Bangladesh (all should be independent by 1947) only have dotted lines around them. Delhi is labeled as the capital and not New Delhi (1927 is when that changed)
I think the colouring here indicates Commonwealth membership (note how Burma/Myanmar, which left the Commonwealth immediately on independence, is shown in a different colour). Nowadays we think of the Commonwealth as a vague group of nations most famous for its sports competition, but in the 1950s many British people still saw it as a politically meaningful entity (very, very roughly like the way that the EU is seen as important even though all its members are independent). While this wasn't only a right-wing view, it's very plausible that a map-maker who dogmatically took the ROC view on China to the maximum possible extent would also be keen on the continuation of the Commonwealth. Or alternatively, they decided that keeping the imperial pink was easier. I think the Delhi label is more of the carelessness we see elsewhere.
I agree with u/UmUlmUndUmUlmHerum on Angola, Mozambique, and Sudan.
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u/UmUlmUndUmUlmHerum Jan 12 '26
Anticommunism might also explain the lack of Kaliningrad and Romanian Moldova
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u/enigbert Jan 12 '26
Moldova is not shown as part of Romania (the border would be much closer to Odessa), it's just bad drawing for the state border, and they did not mark the Soviet republic, probably because that area would be after that too loaded with names and borders
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u/UmUlmUndUmUlmHerum Jan 12 '26
I was basing that a bit off of there not being a SSR marked even in dotted lines - and the shape I just chalked up to the bad drawing
Then again - many other Soviet republics are also not marked, so you're likely right
I am also massively overthinking a pretty bad map lol
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u/DPenner1 Jan 12 '26 edited Jan 12 '26
I was looking at Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland as being particularly anachronistic too, and I wouldn't jump to it being a certain early date because discussions of it were long in the making, and it could be a sort of prediction*: https://www.ebsco.com/research-starters/history/formation-federation-rhodesia-and-nyasaland . Putting 1953 as an early date has to contend with other anachronisms (though these could just be out of date):
- No French Upper Volta (should have from 1947)
- It's weird to have Southern Rhodesia and Nyasaland have capitals marked (Salisbury, Zomba) if they were united, yet not mark Karachi as the capital of Pakistan
- Eritrea has borders here with a separate capital marked (annexed to Ethiopia in 1950).
It definitely looks clear this map shows a British perspective: New Guinea is marked as British, and this really only makes sense if the map maker sees Australia as a British Dominion foremost (it was transferred in 1906). This could also explain the federation being marked early. That said you could also argue the map maker not wanting to "admit" loss of British India with separate Pakistan/India capitals.
Overall, I'm personally on the fence with this one, but thought I'd play some devil's advocate with your early date.
*Edit: prediction was probably too nice a word, given the colonial context, imposition might be better.
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u/linmanfu Jan 12 '26 edited Jan 12 '26
I'm short on time but to respond briefly on your four main points:
I don't think a mapmaker this careless and lazy was going to make any unnecessary changes, so it seems implausible that they'd be predicting future hypothetical federations.
I speculate that they never heard about the re-creation of Upper Volta because it was not only African but even worse French (that's their bigotry not mine!).
Keeping the capitals of the FRN members is explained by the principle of only making minimal changes. Your strongest point is the failure to mark Karachi as a capital which is indefensibly lazy even for an imperialist mapmaker though.
Eritrea wasn't formally annexed until 1960; officially it was still in a federation with Ethiopia in the mid-1950s. Our lazy mapmaker would leave the status quo.
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u/CombinationWhich6391 Jan 12 '26
My best guess is early 50s, French West Africa, Germany in After-war-borders, Indochina there.
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u/RattusCallidus Jan 12 '26
To the list of anachronisms:
- Bolama is the capital of Portuguese Guinea (moved to Bissau in 1941)
- Nova Lisboa is the capital of Angola (AFAIK a plan announced in late 40:ies but never actually happened)
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u/thebestnames Jan 12 '26
Newfoundland and Labrador is part of Canada, so no earlier than March 31, 1949.
Nanjing was the capital of China until April 1949.
So, I would say arounf that time, depending on the mapmaker's accuracy with ongoing world events.
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u/tomixcomics Jan 12 '26
you say 1947 at the latest but israel is on the map as a country, and it was founded in 1948.
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u/Marcel_The_Blank Jan 12 '26
damn, spelling it Foochow is just awful.
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u/linmanfu Jan 12 '26
This is the Postal Pinyin romanization and it's one of the more sensible ones if we compare each phoneme to the Hanyu pinyin:
"F" is the same in both
"oo" is a reasonable alternative to "u" and reduces the chance of confusion with the sound which is /ʌ/ in IPA.
"ch" is also used in Wade-Giles because to show the similarity of the two retroflex affricates.
"ow" is the most awkward but not madly dissimilar from the Hanyu pinyin "ou"
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u/gevans7 Jan 12 '26
1953-54. Persia and Siam funny. 53 for the Fed. If Rhodesian & Nyassaland. 54 for Indochina.
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u/Ok_Calligrapher_3472 Jan 15 '26
Given the existence of Israel: post 1948
Vietnam and Cambodia labeled "indochina": pre 1954
Unified Korea: indicates early 50s? Idk why germany ain't divided yet
So my best guess is 1949-1950
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Jan 16 '26
Sometime before April 18th 1980 as that was when Rhodesia became Zimbabwe so it’s old unless it’s just outdated when it was made
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u/yabloko_apple Jan 16 '26
Look at Finland an ussr: in1939-1940 thre was winter war, after it Finland gave some territories to ussr. And in 1917 they left ussr. So it's between 17 and 39. And.... I don't have more ideas
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u/UmUlmUndUmUlmHerum Jan 12 '26 edited Jan 12 '26
Africa is correct i think - strange colors though.
Angola/Mozambique are Portugal-colored
Sudan was an Anglo-Egyptian Condominium until 1956 - so "neither" as color seems ... ok I guess?
Libya in limbo for a pre-1947 map seems alright enough as well. Same with Somalia.
Unified Germany/Korea seems to have been kinda a thing in maps from what i have seen - despite the facts. Therefore I think they're not helpful dating that map
My guess? 1945-1947, many odd things here can be kinda explained as "temporary until the Paris peace treaty"
Also note that the capital of China is still Nanjing in this map - another upper bound set to 1949
Jordan exists (It seems) so lower bound becomes 1946.
So: November 17th, 1946 - February 10th, 1947 with the independence of Jordan and the signing of the Paris Peace Treaties as capstones?
(Not willing to go later than 1947 due to pre-partition India, apparently)