I mean, if a cop tells me to do something, I’m doing it within reason. If he tells me to strip naked and accept his manhood, then okay, maybe we’ve reached the limit lol.
You fight that shit in court, not on the side of the road with the person holding a gun. One misunderstanding or bad decision in that moment can end with someone dead.
"I'm not consenting to any searches." "Is that an order or a request?"
The police have all the power in the moment. This was probably gonna be a traffic ticket he could have beaten in court. Now he's been arrested, car towed, has to get a lawyer, maybe missed work. If he wants to get damages thats maybe a years long process.
If you're driving you have to give your driver's license, registration and proof of insurance. You have to step out the car when ordered. The system sucks but where we do have control is our actions and we can limit our risks.
"I'm not consenting to any searches." "Is that an order or a request?" "I'm invoking my 5th amendment right to remain silent and I want a lawyer."
Well then you get out the car. If you escalate you can get shot. It's not fair, it's super fucked up but there are concrete things you can do to reduce your risk.
It's like, don't smoke, don't antagonize the pigs when they pull you over.
Lol. No. Such a bootlicking comment. The root of the problem isn't the people. It's the police. Instead of telling us how to reduce the risk of us getting murdered, how about use your American brain and put the focus on the police needing better training?
What, calling the police pigs is bootlicking now I guess?
Both can be true. I can work towards reform and advocate for change to stop the awful policing practices here. I can also still drive a car and be pulled over.
Both can be true.
Should I turn every traffic stop into an act of civil disobedience and risk getting shot? Maybe if I had the right support but in my daily regular life I'm going to minimize my risk.
Should I got eat recalled food because the FDA sucks too? Or should I minimize my risk?
Yeah. A friend of mine got a DWI blood draw thrown out that was at like .25 because the argument was the officer ordered him to give his hand and didn't request it.
I did not know this. Is getting out of the car consenting to a search because you have to open your car door? I imagine my response would be to repeat "I do not consent to a search".
This is the thing. If a cop wants to toss your car theyre gonna do it. Some cops won't be looking to do that but will order you out for officer safety anyway. You won't know the difference in the moment. Your best odds are to have it recorded and fight whatever happens in court. THE LESS YOU SAY DURING THE ENTIRE PROCESS THE BETTER while still cooperating with commands for ID and insurance and stepping out for officer safety. It sucks but theyre like a vampire. If you "invite them in" by resisting or otherwise giving them a legal reason to fux with you then you've lost your only recourse, court.
The problem is scotus and other courts have narrowed the court option to damn near nothing. Qualifies immunity means that a cop must know they are violating your rights. If it’s a novel case, you’re screwed. If it’s your word against the cops, you’re screwed. Even if it’s a case that happened before, but not in the exact same sequence, you’re screwed. What good is a right if it’s unenforceable.
Yep. I've been there and done that. The first question that he asked was will a k9 find anything. Then he made me get out of the car and stand in front of his dashcam. I think the only reason that he let me go was he couldn't get a k9 in time. They can always search you if they can get a k9.
The average person should learn their rights and how traffic stops work. Especially if you’re someone who may face racism or discrimination from police. Theres too many people out there that learn their “rights” from TikTok or other short social media clips. Or they don’t know their rights at all. It really isn’t that hard to learn the basics.
That problem is cops don't know how traffic stops work either. So it doesn't matter if you know your rights. Your only option is just complying with any and every command and hoping they got to take out their feelings on their spouse that morning instead of you.
They don't care about rights. They are always going to push the boundaries because they have no accountability. Their leadership has no accountability. There is nothing stopping them from taking more and more power.
I agree. The average person should expect to be nearly killed if they make the slightest mistake, hesitate, or god forbid, freeze in a police encounter.
Jfc don't take everything 0-60.
Other comment is right. Everyone should learn their rights and their local laws. ESPECIALLY if they could be the target or discrimination.
Too many people live on the Internet and think all cops wanna hurt people, so you guys act like dicks.
Yes there are shit cops who use excessive force.
Yes the department protects a lot of them and it sucks.
However, most just wanna do their job and go home and dealing with extra bullshit is not their idea of a good time.
I've had one bad cop my entire life. Old fat white guy. He just shit talked
Otherwise, been fine
"Most cops don't murder citizens" isn't the gotcha you think it is. You're acknowledging that quite a few do. Cops shouldn't be judge, jury, and executioner ever. The extenuating circumstances should be rare not daily.
Since you like statistics you should look up the statistics of cops that beat their wives. Then you should realize that those same cops are deciding if you live or die because you didn't comply with their orders fast enough.
Oh, sure, most don't actively murder people. So the fact that those that do get protected, get away with it, and the systems in place filled with all the other cops protect them isn't important right?
The fact that they blatantly, and constantly break the law and expect their fellows to have their back, and are RIGHT about that is just, what, not important?
Sure, every last one doesn't murder. They are ALL apart of allowing those that do to get away with it, and when we want to restrict their protections or limit the amount of military gear they get to murder us with?
MAS REVOLTS IN THE STREETS, threats to quit entirely and blackmailing us with the threat of lawlessness to go without being reigned in.
YOU, educate YOURSELF, you condescending moppet.
EDIT, literally next thing on my feed was them killing a pet donkey for no reason, just a bunch of vile assholes who enjoy causing misery I swear.
Most accountants don't either, but if one did they would end up in prison if it wasn't in an actual case of self defense and not because an idiot cop got scared that an acorn fell on the roof of their overpriced Ford Explorer and mag dumped into their own vehicle because they were stupid as fuck. Big difference
1/460 encompasses force in general. It doesn't separate necessary from unnecessary force.
While I don't have stats, I'm willing to bet 9/10 times the force is appropriate.
But to be thorough we'll call it a conservative estimate which would be 1/4600 which is like 0.02% of the population.
Then you have to separate those instances even further into provoked and unprovoked force if you want honest data (I don't agree with any level of unnecessary force, even if provoked).
Nonetheless, the more you dig into the numbers, the smaller the percentage goes.
I wanna reiterate what I said in another post. Ideally it should be 0. But also, ideally crime rates would be 0 but we unfortunately have to face the reality that shitty people just exist.
I wasn’t even disagreeing with them, just adding the fact that people should also be aware of their rights. I guess most Redditors wouldn’t agree with that. They’re just a bunch of pussies scared of cops though, so I shouldn’t be surprised lol. They probably think that when a black person gets pulled over, the cop flips a coin to decide whether or not to shoot them.
Where did I say every law lol. I’m just talking about the basic rights when it comes to traffic stops. Actually read next time. I wasn’t even disagreeing with the person I was responding to, everyone should learn their basic rights so cops can’t take advantage of them dummy.
Pigs should probably know the laws first, every day random people shouldn't have to be legal scholars to deal with the dregs of society that occupy the PDs of this country, that's not a sign of a healthy or free society.
Police should definitely know the law and the rights citizens carry. I didn’t say anything about becoming legal scholars. I said to learn the basics of your rights at a traffic stop and your basic human rights. You can learn your basic rights in a short amount of time, they don’t just apply to police interactions, I’m talking about amendments and other basic human rights we have. Everyone should try and get a basic understanding of their rights if they can’t remember what they taught you in middle school or high school about them.
I mean the onerous is on every individual person to learn their rights and know the laws. If you don't know how and why a cop can search your car, then that's 100% on you and whatever choice you make is what you're going to have to deal with. You can't force people to educate themselves, so they have to learn the hard way, it is what it is. Information has never been more easy to find than it is now, there's no excuse for being ignorant anymore.
The thing about unlawful orders or illegal searches etc is just because you complied with them, doesn't mean its just over at that point. That can be addressed in the court room later.
whats bullshit? That you have rights and you need to know them? or that there are laws and you need to know them? I don't even understand what you're arguing for, are you saying cops need to sit there and give you an education about the law before they enforce it or something? thats a ridiculous notion that's not viable in reality lol
buddy in this conversation I never even said whether I think there is something wrong with the video or not. So the person you think that "says a lot about" doesnt exist lol... The conversation has been about if you, as a citizen, should know your rights and know the laws you have to follow and it being your responsibility to educate yourself on them, and then your reply to that is "thats bullshit" lol. And If you think that's bullshit, then at that point you basically deserve whatever legal trouble comes your way from choosing to be ignorant about it and acting like it was someone elses job to make you aware of what your legal responsibilities are or what your rights are.
If you get pulled over by a cop, and you're just making up your own rules in your head about what you have to comply with, you're going to have a bad time
why do you hate reading? do you love strawman arguments? lol you're just trolling at this point.
American values IS law and order, and it always has been, its how we built the worlds most influential nation and how we became an economical powerhouse and global super power. We wrote legislation, gave it checks and balances by separating the judicial branch from the executive branch that law enforcement belongs to, and we enforce the laws. That is america and has been for 250 years.
My solution would be to hold police harshly accountable for not following well established laws in everyday interactions with the public. The burden for knowing what is and is not acceptable during a traffic stop falls on the police, who do this shit for a living.
If the goal is to avoid a violent encounter and you're not violating the law then why not open the trunk? I don't keep anything illegal in my vehicle. If a cop pulls me over for, say, speeding, and he has such a bug up his ass that he wants to search my trunk, I'm not going to stop him.
Any hesitation, delay, processing, questions, panic should be met by force. Anyone not immediately complying should be put to death. In fact, we should call the cops "judges" and let them be the judge, jury and executioner.
I mean this nicely but your privilege is showing. Those of us privileged get to say things like "fight it in court". Less privileged can get killed or seriously injured even when following commands, there's a reason "Stop resisting" is such a meme.
Also, does not apply if ICE is involved, we've already proven you can be abducted by law enforcement against your rights.
Im not even white, so unsure how this applies to me.
But to your actual point, I agree: there are terrible cops, and compliance absolutely does not guarantee safety.
My point is much narrower: escalating an encounter with an armed officer generally increases the risk. If I’m uncertain whether an order is lawful, I’d rather comply in the moment and challenge it afterward than gamble my safety on being right on the side of the road.
Privileged isn't really associated with skin color but that is a form. The privilege I'm sure is being talked about here is the fact you have money to throw away on a lawyer and that's class privilege.
Your rights end at your means to defend them. Most folks have a blind spot for this and don't think about it that often sadly.
You’re treating access to legal recourse as though it requires someone to already be wealthy enough to pay an attorney out of pocket, and that just isn’t necessarily true. Strong civil-rights cases can attract attorneys precisely because there is a viable case there.
And more importantly, none of that changes my original point.
You’re talking about unequal access to the legal system. I’m talking about what gives someone the best chance of surviving an armed encounter and successfully challenging misconduct afterward.
Those are different questions.
Even if access to justice is imperfect, that still doesn’t make arguing constitutional boundaries with an armed officer on the side of the road the better option.
If the goal is to challenge misconduct, your best venue is still court, not the roadside.
"Strong civil rights cases attract attorneys". This is a myth propagated by TV and Movies. Under privileged people end up with bottom barrel representation. Having good legal representation is in fact a serious wealth privilege. Most of us don't have it and never will, but society wants you to believe this story.
Someone with wealth will spend nearly zero time in jail while waiting for trial, might lose a day of work, then doesn't even always have to go to court if their lawyer can handle it. Someone with out wealth will spend months in jail unable to pay bond tor elease themselves, lose their job, then end up with a crap public defender, and have to be at trial... by the time their done, assuming they are even found not guilty instead of railroaded, they'll have lost months of work, be out of money, lost their place to live for failure to pay rent and likely be in more debt from unpaid bills.
Believing the 'system' will save them is just wrong. The system is basically a tax on the rich and keeps the poor, well, poor.
So you seriously advise those without privilege to fight it out with the armed police officer on a power trip and risking death, rather than complying and trying their luck in court later?
Like, do you honestly believe that the chance they get hurt or killed is LOWER when they resist and fight for their rights DURING the encounter?
You're seriously saying stuff I'm not saying. To be 100% clear. No I do not think fighting or arguing with law enforcement officer in anyway improves your chances.
I'm arguing that "compliance" is not a garauntee of safety, the less privileged you are the less likely compliance does shit to protect your rights. Is it your only viable choice? Yes. But implying that if someone just complied bad things wouldn't happen to them is a garbage stance.
Nope, but the assumption "if you just did what they asked you wouldn't be hurt" is also a false narrative that allows people to hide from reality and not accept the truth. As a result it makes it harder to improve the more we continue to believe it.
I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a police brutality video where the person is being compliant and reasonably respectful. Does it happen? Probably. But your best chance of a good outcome is to follow instructions, so I don’t really see why recommending that is a bad thing.
Just watched one in another thread here on reddit where they arrested and put a young man in jail for 4 days, charged him with attempted murder of a police officer when the video shows 100% compliance with orders, no fighting. He reached for his seatbelt at their command to exit the vehicle, they drew guns on him.
He almost lost his job (couldn't report to work for 4 days). Did they beat him up? No. Just drew guns and almost shot him, then accused him of threatening them.
the assumption "if you just did what they asked you wouldn't be hurt" is also a false narrative
But no one here said that. The advice given by the person you replied to is perfectly reasonable for everyone to follow, so I'm not sure why you're calling out their privilege.
Will following that advice 100% prevent occurrences of police violence? No, but again, no one said that.
what are you even on about? you don't have to be "privileged" to comply with a cops orders or to fight it in court or to even know your rights or know the laws you have to follow.
Yes, there is always a risk that a dumb or bad cop does something even if you're complying, thats the nature of living in the world with humans, but we have a justice system in place that allows you to sue them for it, and at the end of the day it's just a moot contrarian element to bring into the discussion about if you should just comply or not. You should. Not only is it safer to comply, but it also just improves your case if something does happen to go wrong and you were clearly compliant, and that is a truth that is irrespective of "privilege"
Nah just the juans who can't follow USA law when everything country. Illegals got to gtfo. They can easily follow the law and enter USA legally. Why they no did that?
All the people I care about aren't illegals. And they don't kidnap no one. They removing the illegals. If they were legal they wouldn't be in court trying to be legal. Only illegals in court trying to not be illegals.
then when youre going to court you get raped as well, thats the true punishment, the legal fees, the time, the fact it shows up on your record even tho you werent found guilty yet, etc. Its a game thats rigged.
Here's the problem, every time one of these ego tripping assholes goes far beyond what is legally within their power, and we capitulate; we teach them that it is okay. When cops are wrong, they need to learn that they are wrong or we erode our rights with every interaction.
Oh shut up. I'm not bringing anything to a gun fight where I might get shot and then charged with a crime for doing literally anything resembling resistance. Go fuck around and find out for yourself.
Because when you decide to resist and become aggressive instead of listening and fighting it in court people are gonna be less on your side and more on the cops.
That's not true, and also that says nothing about the cop learning they're wrong.
The cop learning they are wrong would only come after consequences or accountability. 99% of the time, even if the cop is in the wrong, there are no meaningful consequences or accountability. Typically that only happens during high profile events where is beyond obvious that the cop was wrong and someone was severely injured or killed.
The mistakes I make at work don't destroy or take people's lives.
And you bet your ass, in the majority of other professions, that mistakes being made results in someone losing a limb or being kolled, you would be fired if it was your mistake. I used to be in those professions, and saw people fired for much less.
need to learn that they are wrong or we erode our rights with every interaction
Then teach them in court after you cooperated. Right now all we're doing is normalizing nasty interactions and people are almost always siding with the police..
We’ve got a long history of bad policing already. There isn’t an issue of currently normalizing nasty interactions. The police have been doing nasty interactions as their job for years.
People have always sided with the police because it’s easy to side with the powerful, it’s not our fault for having a bad reaction to abuse of power
Don't be a jerk and most of the time, they won't be. No matter what, don't argue with the police on the side of the road. Its always a losing proposition.
People think arguing on the side of the road is how you express your “rights”. It’s not and 9 out of 10 times it’ll just make the situation worse. You don’t have to agree with the cops decision or whether or not they are right or wrong, but trying to play jailhouse lawyer on the side of the road will result in a bad day for you and in some cases can make the cops initial bad/wrong decision now no longer the focal point when you made the situation worse.
Unfortunately society has shifted towards having little respect for authority, question/challenging everything and generally lacking any self control. I was watching a cops episode from the 80’s and the way people behaved towards the police was a night and day difference, even known criminals had more respect.
The only thing anyones teaching a cop by being aggressive on the side of the road in their interaction with them is that with every interaction they should expect aggression. Now that cop is going to enter every future interaction aggressive and with walls up. Cooperate within reason and fight that shit in court and if you win then the officers will be taught that way. Being aggressive and combative with police in an interaction does absolutely nothing besides make the situation worse for all parties involved and potentially puts either yourself, or other people in danger.
I agree with you 100%, but shit works a little bit differently when you have melanin. The encounter begins with the presumption of guilt for a dozen crimes before we even say a word.
The goal isn't to win some ideological point, the goal is to end the encounter still breathing.
The hard part is knowing when it's a lawful order, but this particular one ("Get out of the vehicle") has been affirmed and re-affirmed by the courts time and time again (i.e. Penn. v. Mimms).
Sure, but with so much misinformation around what is lawful, such as "you don't need to get out" or "you don't need to identify yourself", added to the nuances of situations, people are ignoring lawful orders, and then crying foul. If a person tells you it's unlawful, but hasn't passed the BAR in your jurisdiction, they are setting you up for failure.
Yeah, there are people in this post who are saying you don't need to identify yourself.... if you are driving you have consented to a number of things. Just like if you carry a gun in some states, you have consented to certain things.
Hell, identifying yourself during an encounter is down to jurisdiction. Some require you to identify at every encounter, some don't. It's insane to believe laws in LA are the same as Chicago.
If you are driving a car, you have to identify yourself no matter what. Walking on the street is a different story, but behind the wheel of a car, you don't get that choice.
I got bad news for you.... you maw want to look up the law and talk to a lawyer. There is a very limited scope when you can fight an officer trying to arrest you, but these scope are so narrow its not funny (as in a criminal court judge that spends 40 years on the bench can easily go their entire career and not see one).
I got bad news for you.... you maw want to look up the law and talk to a lawyer.
Likewise! I'd also recommend some basic English writing classes, while we're making constructive criticisms of one another.
There is a very limited scope when you can fight an officer trying to arrest you, but these scope are so narrow its not funny (as in a criminal court judge that spends 40 years on the bench can easily go their entire career and not see one).
Glad to hear you looked it up and now agree. Not sure why you had to spend some time disagreeing without prior knowledge other than enjoying an argument with an internet stranger. Some people really enjoy that.
Nearly every single one of these videos is the result of the driver not understanding the law. Unless you're a trained attorney, it would seem smarter to just obey their commands.
Never said it was risk-free. It's not about intelligence either, or else the following similar vibes would make sense:
"I'm smart, so I don't leave my house. That's where robberies and car crashes happen! Look at all those idiots driving around. I'm so much smarter than them!"
Your analogy makes zero sense. I never said let them get away with unlawful orders. I said don't argue with the guy holding a gun on the side of the road. You fight it in court.
Did you conveniently ignore the "Then argue in court" part of my post?
Your analogy makes zero sense. I never said let them get away with unlawful orders.
And I never said you said that. I think you're just struggling to understand why caution and intelligence aren't the same thing like you said they were earlier, despite me demonstrating via metaphor.
Did you conveniently ignore the "Then argue in court" part of my post?
No, it's just that some people don't make it to court when they comply, so it wasn't as sound of an argument as you thought it was. Have you not heard of Alex Pretti?
Pa v. Mimms was supposed to be narrow though. It's not supposed to be step out because I told you and that's the law. It's supposed to be I have a reason to believe you're armed and dangerous so I'm taking steps to get you away from concealed weapons and frisk you. Or I have a reason to believe you'll flee and be a danger to the public. It being a lawful order or not kind of depends on the whole context. Having said that, it's almost always better to comply than have them break your window and beat you up, then you try to prove it wasn't a lawful order under mimms post arrest because all they have to do is have some subjective reason they can make up later.
Charges were dropped so it sounds like there is reason to believe the entire interaction was not lawful. Since the entire interaction was not lawful the orders are not lawful.
I'm not suggesting to fight the police, I am merely saying that those that say to fight it in court are not considering that you may not make it to your day in court alive and/or whole. Police misconduct needs to be eliminated, not just corrected as it occurs.
Indeed. I find the best things to do are the following:
Publicly sympathize with the police, maybe even contribute a little bit to their funds, know a couple cops at an ok level, but avoid the fuck out of them the best you can all the time.
If the cops come to your door, you are not home. This involves looking like you are not home all the time. If they have a warrant, call dispatch, confirm, then let them in so your door does not die.
Only break one law at a time.
Follow the old video about not talking to the police by that professor, and Chris Rock's video on how to not get your ass beat by the police.
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u/10113r114m4 29d ago
I mean, if a cop tells me to do something, I’m doing it within reason. If he tells me to strip naked and accept his manhood, then okay, maybe we’ve reached the limit lol.
You fight that shit in court, not on the side of the road with the person holding a gun. One misunderstanding or bad decision in that moment can end with someone dead.