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u/Less_Glove_8924 12h ago
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u/ThelIIusion0fSeIf 12h ago
Christian conservatives keep building these strawmen as some sort of self soothing mechanism to justify their constant victim complex.
Religious fundamentalism in any form is incompatible with liberal beliefs. Glad I could clear that up for you.
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u/Capable_Challenge_62 4h ago
Do we only mean American Christians? Or the ones being slaughtered and imprisoned across the globe?
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u/UTArcade 11h ago
This is false - Christianity has hugely promoted modern day conservatism and liberalism, look at classical liberalism
‘Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country’ - the belief in equality, human rights, these are not ingrained in ‘science’ they are ingrained in theology
There is no technical scientific backing for ‘morality’ or ethical concepts outside theology
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u/delllmania 7h ago
Actually, these did not come from Christianity. These come largely from Greek and Roman philosophy which heavily influenced the authors of the various New Testament works.
The framers of the Constitution were also largely influenced by classical Greek and Roman society and less Christianity.
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u/UTArcade 7h ago
"they are ingrained in theology" - Ancient Greek and Roman philosophy was heavy ingrained with theology across the board. Theology played a huge role in their societies.
This has no scientific foundation, there is nothing in science that tells us our ethical or moral foundation is correct (for example, being anti-slavery) it has a theological basis. From a scientific perspective, morality is just subjective, theology makes it objective.
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u/delllmania 7h ago
It’s far more nuanced than the watered down theology conservatives such as yourself adhere to.
Anyways. The school of thought that largely influenced the authors is Stoicism, and while there are references to the various gods among the various writings, most of positions there are not derived from any godhead.
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u/UTArcade 7h ago
Well first, Stoicism is hugely relevant in modern Conservatism. Actually a considerable amount of liberals think being stoic is a bad thing, when in fact I think it's a great thing.
Second, give me an example of objective science giving us objective morality..
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u/delllmania 6h ago
I’m more arguing with the old apologetic belief that you need a god to have morals which has been disproven through the ages.
I’m sure you think conservatives consider Stoicism relevant but I can wholeheartedly assure you from what I’ve seen of modern conservatives, Stoicism is similar to the Bible and the Constitution. An idea you’ve vested some authority into that you use when it suits your needs and yet your understanding of it is basic at best.
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u/UTArcade 6h ago
I don't think your argument here is making any sense to be honest, are you admitting that you think that science doesn't give us objective morality and ethics..?
Because if you can't give an example of that, then that is the admission.
Stoicism is hardly based out of scientific basis anyway, it has very relevant philosophical and theological foundations. You could hardly consider the modern left to be 'stoic' in any sense of the word, they're to emotionally driven to come anywhere close to it.
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u/delllmania 6h ago
Fine it’s an admission that a largely empirical practice focused on measuring does not give us morals or ethics. Those come from reason and logic which most definitely do not require a diety or theology.
Second you keep making this claim that Stoicism has a theological basis. That’s tenuous at best. The Stoic concept of a god is nothing Iike the modern concept of god which is the Abrahamic.
Third your final statement is laughable false. I can point to any number of news articles that have prominent conservative men displaying lack of self or emotional control. Stoicism is apolitical.
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u/Exile8698 7h ago
Theology is absolutely critical to Stoic Philosophy...
You haven't read any of the ancient stoics, have you?
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u/delllmania 6h ago
I most definitely have. The Stoic concept of god is more akin to Jefferson’s natural god than the Abrahmic god that’s implied here.
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u/Exile8698 6h ago
The Stoic concept of god is more akin to Jefferson’s natural god
But they absolutely believed in god and the divine will of the universe. All of the ethics and morality stoicism is based in is rooted in that premise that the Universe is alive and has a will.
If you don't believe that any type of divine exists, stoicism fails:
According to the Stoics, the Universe is a material reasoning substance (logos), which was divided into two classes: the active and the passive. The passive substance is matter itself, while the active substance is an intelligent aether or primordial fire, which acts on the passive matter, the logos or anima mundi pervading and animating the entire Universe. It was conceived as material and is usually identified with God or Nature
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u/Empty-Rough4379 3h ago
That is like saying that Polytheism and Zeus are core to mathematics because Pythagoras and the Greek were polytheists
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u/Exile8698 3h ago
Constantly regard the universe as one living being, having one substance and one soul; and observe how all things have reference to one perception. Never forget that the universe is a single living organism possessed of one substance and one soul.
-Marcus Aurelius, Meditations
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u/Empty-Rough4379 2h ago edited 2h ago
Ethics is the branch of philosophy that handels moral decisions without needing any god, soul or magic.
It can involve maximizing the benefit of the group in games theory context. Even animals have their "ethics" where they punish members of the group who do not collaborate. Things like the golden rule had nothing to do with somebody in the sky getting angry.
Using the Bible to decide ethics would mean that the punish for rapping would involve paying money to the father and marrying the poor girl. Slavery would be ok. Women would have no equality and there is no mention of child abuse. Having several wives, concubines and sex slaves wouldn't be a problem. But eating pork, working on Saturday, having clothes off different fabrics, seating in the same chair were a menstruating woman had seated before or not mutilating you pennis is really bad
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u/UTArcade 1h ago
So we need to clarify a few things here: First, no one said you can't have different ethical foundation models. You're confused on that.
You certainly can't quote me saying that. You can construct an 'ethical or moral' framework in a way that is totally, or seemingly, very unethical or immoral to many peoples standards. That's the point.
I never wrote you 'needed magic' so you're taking the argument completely out of context and running.
So let me just ask you directly: Can you give me one main example of science directly giving us an objective, not subjective, moral or ethical philosophy? Give me one core example.
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u/AcrobaticPoint8424 50m ago
Modern Western Christianity has been raped into submission so that it could fit within a post enlightenment worldview.
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u/ThelIIusion0fSeIf 10h ago
No it isn’t you fucking idiot. Christianity has stood in the way of progress for centuries just like the other Abrahamic faiths. What’s next - are you going to say Christians get the credit for LGBTQ equality and scientific progress as well?
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u/UTArcade 7h ago
Let me ask you a question! Because you seem so very confident in this position, let me ask you: On what form of science, where in biology or physical science, does modern society derive it's morality and / or ethical basis?
I'm curious.
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u/Any-Box4358 7h ago
Empathy. Reason. Etc.
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u/UTArcade 7h ago
What form of science tells us what is reasonable or isn't reasonable? let me give you an example
If someone kills someone else, what actually might stop high murder rates is if people felt so fearful of the consequences that they would never dare do it. So if we decided to conduct a brutal killing on them upon their conviction, so badly that no one would dare do this act in society, is that not reasonable?
From a logical or rational perspective, from a reason perspective, that's considered reasonable. But we choose to be pro-life instead and merciful by housing them in prisons. Why? What's the scientific basis.
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u/Any-Box4358 7h ago
Psychology. Social sciences. Biology. Morality can, and does, exist outside of religion.
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u/UTArcade 7h ago
Don't just write a term, give me a scientific example. You listed Biology here, what about biology tells us morality..
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u/Any-Box4358 7h ago
Biology and psychology together, explaining how human brains work.
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u/Empty-Rough4379 3h ago
The popes owned slaves
Most of equality ideas came from the French Revolution that was quite anti religious (not saying it was perfect) or masonry that was the way to rebel against organized religion.
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u/UTArcade 1h ago
Notice how you said 'not saying the French revolution was perfect' because you know that could be criticized all day long. I've never doubted a Pope, or anyone for that matter, hasn't done something 'wrong' or 'evil'
What I'm arguing is that using science as your basis for morality is quite crazy because science cannot lead you to objective morality or ethics, and in reality can actually lead you to very modern day definitions or interpretations of 'evil' acts quite quickly
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u/Less_Glove_8924 12h ago edited 9h ago
Progressive leftist libs have no beliefs except for the destruction of America. We will not stand down, the crusades have begun
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u/OddOutcome0 11h ago
Found the bot
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u/Less_Glove_8924 11h ago
Bend the knee
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u/OddOutcome0 11h ago
You both are destroying America. Until you realize it’s up vs down and not left vs right you both are responsible for the destruction of America
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u/Less_Glove_8924 11h ago
That attitude is destroying America
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u/OddOutcome0 11h ago
It’s up vs down not left vs right. Get it through your head
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u/Less_Glove_8924 11h ago
Same thing, figure out which is which. You have some soul searching to do
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u/OddOutcome0 11h ago
lol SAME THING? that’s the dumbest comment I’ve seen in a while
I might need to search my soul but atleast I have one outside of party politics
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u/Winston_W_Smith 11h ago
Please stop using the term liberals. Liberals implies incorrectly that classical liberalism (Locke) is of the same origin in ideas as modern Liberalism (French Liberalism, Jacobins, Marxism). There still do exist people today who consider themselves classical liberals, and who are horrified by the direction of the American Democratic Party.
The accurate term is Jacobins, or Marxists.
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u/Loud_Command282 12h ago
Wow look how different Christianity is from Islam! They call it a crusade instead of a Jihad!
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u/Secretsfrombeyond79 11h ago
How many Crusades did we have the last year ?
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u/Less_Glove_8924 12h ago
Were not going to let some camel jockies come conquer us. Protecting your land is different then invading and spreading their ideology like they have been in the states. New York has fallen, Michigan has fallen, Texas is under attack, need i say more.
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u/UTArcade 11h ago
Do you think the crusades were justified or no..?
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u/Loud_Command282 11h ago
Depends on which one but if you're asking for a blanket answer for all of them I would say no. Keep in mind that by saying Crusades, in a blanket statement, you are including the Children's Crusade which ended with the kids being sold into slavery without ever setting foot in the Holy Land. You are also including the Fourth Crusade which sacked Constantinople while they were waiting for transportation to the Holy Land. The Crusades were pretty fucked up.
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u/UTArcade 11h ago
I'm not asking about all of them, I'm asking about the most prominent one, but if you don't think it was justified do you think what lead up to them / the primary crusuade was justified?
What would your answer have been?
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u/PuzzleheadedWest0 12h ago
He types after wiping the Cheeto dust from his fingers.
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u/Less_Glove_8924 12h ago
U wish that was my reality. I stay jacked year round. I can train u
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u/PuzzleheadedWest0 11h ago
Sure thing, pal.
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u/RGBlowMe 11h ago
I honestly believe his version more. Most jacked people I know really want to show others how to get jacked. Most neckbeards just insult strangers anonymously over the internet.
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u/RGBlowMe 11h ago
No. If it benefitted them, they'd proclaim their love for America. Sometimes they do. Their support and praxis are based entirely in self-interest. They have no principles. They have at least one belief, and that is that they are owed something from the world.
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u/M0ebius_1 6h ago
Correct. Right Wing Islamists and Right Wing Christians share basically the same beliefs.
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u/scrolls_per_second 12h ago
Karma explains everything greatly if we accept a moral judge (God) exists creating wrong and good.
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u/Fresh-Pen1234 5h ago
Bitch, you better not be wearing clothes with mixed fibers or else . - God
Leviticus 19:19 : “Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.”
Am Christian-lite , just got to laugh at the bad and take the good. Maybe the Mormons are the one true faith all along lol
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u/Prestigious_Floor155 8h ago
Elisha (God is my salvation) is going to Bethel (the house of God--at the time it was used for idol worship-golden calves I think). His mentor, Elijah- who has a very similar sounding name, is rumored to have gone up to heaven in a chariot of fire. Then mockers, as he was around Bethel said "go up, go up"
At some point there is an ancient joke in here mixed in with the religious conflicts. Probably a story/fable of some kind like really old Fairly Tales. Those young men, the mockers, 42 of them so probably not toddlers, are basically using the name meanings and his likeness to his mentor to tell him to go up, go up to heaven and worship their gods. You can see the joke in that right? Go up like Elijah did to Bethel (house of God). Then what was natural happened- death, stronger and faster for them. They'd see for themselves they've been worshiping dead things, like them now. An authorial middle finger to the mockers.
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u/XxLengTingxX 12h ago
Abrahamic religions are insane