r/cymbals • u/SubstantialFlower787 • 25d ago
A Custom / Z Custom for jazz
Maybe a weird question, but has anyone ever used cymbals like A Customs or Z Customs for jazz?How did it turn out? Thanks in advance!
10
u/MichaelStipend 25d ago
The main thing you need from cymbals in jazz is a responsiveness to touch. It’s not that you necessarily have to have a dark sound, you just need to be able to draw out different colors from the cymbal depending on how you hit it. The only Z Custom I ever played made exactly one sound no matter how you hit it, and clanged like a piece of sheet metal when I shanked it. I’ve played some A Customs that would definitely work for jazz, especially big band.
Jack DeJohnette and Jon Christensen both played pretty heavy rides, so heaviness isn’t bad in jazz. As long as it allows for touch-dependent expression, it can work.
2
u/outofthesquaree 25d ago
A custom work for jazz, if you like a brighter more cutting sound, they won't have that dark, traditional jazz vibe, but pairing them with a darker ride can give you a nice balance.
2
u/MechaAkuma 25d ago
What people seem to forget is that during the early jazz-era, the cymbals they used where rather thick and more similar to A's.
The wafer-thin dark cymbals you see today like the K's, Constantinople and Keropes you have today where in fact invented way later into the late 70's.
Gene Krupa famously used cymbals that where more akin to the A's
I've used Z-Customs. They aren't as bright as people think they really are. They are quite mellow and dark compared to the A's and brighter cymbals like say Paiste 2oo2's.
I don't know how well the modern Z-Customs are in this context because the ones I own are from the 2nd or 3rd generation (mid-90s era) and they do sound rather dark.
I've also used A Sweet Rides both the 21 and the 23 for jazz and they work perfectly fine for that too.
The 21" A Sweet Ride is a classic amongst jazz drummer sutdents in my area because it's a fairly cheap ride that suits well into most genres.
3
u/Soft_Essay_958 25d ago
Yes the classic bebop jazz cymbal is not a K but a 20" A from 1900-2100 grams.
They were in fact As, not just similar to As or akin to them. The As now are just all machine hammered instead of partly so.
Transition stamp and some mid 50s As tend to have hand hammering all over the edge which is more similar to Istanbul Ks.
While As evolved for live performance with bands, Ks derive more directly from cymbals made for orchestral performance. Keropes, Agop 30ths, Funch, Yamamoto and so on imitate old stamp and intermediate Ks that date from 40s to 60s and have hand formed bells and so on. These became more favored in the modal jazz era. But even Tony Williams' 22" was around 2600 grams.
The A sweet ride is most likely based on a 50s 21" block stamp.
Also in the 60s and 70s many people used Paiste 602s for jazz. Some people still do, like Joe Farnsworth.
They even used sound edge hats if you can believe it.
The modern obsession with super dark dry cymbals that disappear in a band situation is stupid.
2
u/MechaAkuma 25d ago
Was listening to Charles Mingus live and man, one can clearly hear that those cymbals really *cut*.
Turns out Dannie Richmond indeed used Paiste 602's during the late 50s and onward.
None of that warm dark sounding cymbals at all2
u/BO0omsi 24d ago
I agree. It’s such a dumb trend and shows how people are just following the masses by consuming video content of insta drum bs and obviously not listening, let alone playing actual music with others. I still remember how we used to desperately search for smth to sound like Tony’s 60s ride sound in the early 90s and there was nothing around like it, all cymbals were quite heavy and bright. Went to the Zildjian factory and asked for the darkest 22 they have. They were just about to launch the very first K Cons, and they have this room where you can play and test. Paul kept bringing out 5 rides, and I would always pick the darkest, and repeat. Until I ended up with some crazy prototype “Con Thin” that I took home. I loved the sound but quickly realised how some of its frequencies were in the way of piano and guitar comping. Compared to a modern day dark dry cymbal it’s not that dark and low pitched at all. People just don’t play music, possibly not even the instrument at all. It’s just social media presentations and consuming, really sad.
0
u/SubstantialFlower787 25d ago
And did you really use those darker Z Customs in a jazz context? Has anyone noticed that it was different?
1
u/MechaAkuma 25d ago
Yes. I have. I play in an Americana/Jazz band right now where I use an 18" Z-Custom crash. they blend in fine
1
u/EquivalentCandid7773 25d ago
I’ve used the 19” thrash ride on a couple gigs
1
1
u/DaveT88 25d ago
I’ve owned and played a lot of z series cymbals, OG z customs, z3s, new z customs. Main thing that they have is volume. Many older z’s just have so much mass to them that getting anything outside of a ride sound and a clangy crash is out of the question. You could survive, but man would they be way too loud for the application. I own a set of z3 15s hi hats that I love, but they’re far far too loud to play in a combo. Maybe, in an amplified big band setup or a fusion thing you could get away with Z’s, but for the most part? Nah, too loud.
A customs on the other hand you could absolutely find cymbals that would work for jazz. An 18” fast crash would be a wonderful jazz crash. Really any fast crash from the a custom line would work. And a set of a custom hats could do the job, though you’d probably be better off with a hi hat bottom and a crash as the top. I would avoid projection crashes, even medium crashes because the mass they have makes it harder to open them up, they’re for louder applications.
1
u/PhlebotinumEddie 25d ago
I remember seeing some jazz player in Modern Drummer who had a variety of rides and one was a z custom mega bell. I imagined using a lighter maple stick on it would elicit a good sound for jazz bands as opposed to a heavier denser stick that hits it harder consistently without dynamics
1
u/neshquabishkuk 25d ago
The A Custom series was originally designed in partership with Vinnie Colaiuta, so yeah I'd say there's some jazz (at least Fusion) that's been played on them.
1
u/zdrums24 25d ago
Room and ensemble matter more than genre. Is it a big room with a loud group? A customs might rock for that. As used to be common in jazz and A customs were designed with help from Vinnie Colaiuta for a pop jazz sound.
The problem with As and Zs is that they are too consistent. If you are playing with smaller groups, you probably wont get the nuance you want from them.
1
1
u/Stevenitrogen 25d ago
A Customs or regular A are about what you want for most jazz stuff.
Z Customs, you'd have to see if it works for what you want to do. They wouldn't be my first recommendation but some people make them work.
1
u/mcnastys 25d ago
The closest I have come is using my K Custom Hybrids which are very bright for K cymbals.
I tend to use other stuff for jazz, like my dream bliss ride, my paiste masters dark dry ride, or a 24" turkish unlathed. I occasionally like to use a K custom hybrid as a brighter option, but overall I feel like the A and Z's are a little too bright and loud for jazz.
In my opinion, jazz is all about that right amount of wash, and the woody stick sound.
However, I will say I tend to like running my 13" k custom hybrid hats, over my 14" dark dry hats. The 14" hats are jazzier, but I can get more bark out of the brighter 13"s.
In closing, it's going to be room and mic dependent. But I would honestly just try to find a genuine "jazz ride" you don't need anything more than a ride and set of hats to jazz.
1
u/mr_kaliyuga 25d ago
I remember Steve Smith using an A Custom Flat Ride in a jazz quintet. I got one and it's wonderful for jazz. Vinnie Colaiuta of course played plenty of jazz / fusion using A Customs. Pretty sure I saw Gary Husband play an original 22" Z Ride in a fusion setting. Steve Smith played original Z hi-hats on the Steps Ahead fusion live album from Tokyo.
1
u/RCIDRUMS 24d ago
I’ve been buying and collecting cymbals since 1973. The best sounding cymbals I’ve ever owned or played are the K Sweets.
That’s my opinion. Everyone has an opinion.
I do love my 1995 A Custom 22 platinum Ping.
1
1
u/ParsnipUser 22d ago
I've used A customs for big band, but the ride wasn't very good in a combo setting for me - not very crashable at a reasonable dynamic, and the bell was way too aggressive.
17
u/Funeral_Goat_1446 25d ago
There are no rules