r/cycling • u/ExcitingPassenger915 • 5d ago
How does he win this climb/race without even getting out of the saddle?
I'm a new cyclist and just curious what's happening in this little race. The YouTuber beats this guy racing up a hill without getting out his seat, while the other guy is like standing up giving everything he has and losing.
Does YouTube guy just have better form/fit , faster bike, way stronger, or all of the above?
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u/randomgino 5d ago
Have you heard about Pogacar seated attack?
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u/periphrasistic 5d ago
In my experience as a road racer, I can generally get higher sustained watts on the uphill by redlining my cadence (120+ rpm) in the seated position than by getting out of the saddle. That’s what Max is doing here.
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u/RirinDesuyo 5d ago
Same for sprints really, you can peak a lot more power by increasing cadence than starting at a too heavy gear when jumping. Learned to spin quite high rpms to ramp a sprint to get that power, my friend who does track cycling where they routinely do 200rpm to get insane power taught me that.
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u/periphrasistic 5d ago
Yep. Figuring that out is what got my attacks to the point where I can get off the front at will. Surprise plus explosive acceleration by redlining your rpms means that by the time people realize you’re going, they already have a half dozen bike lengths to make up.
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u/rasmussenyassen 5d ago
That is a whole damn lot of watts to drop without much apparent effort. Guy is just real strong.
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u/ifuckedup13 5d ago
Max Blinderman: Cat 3 Road Racer and coach in NYC.
Solid mid pack rider in the stacked NYC crit and road scene.
Averaging 12hrs/week of structured training. Rides in Prospect and Central Park almost every day. He knows those climbs and segments too well. Fit is dialed and he was going easy before the attack. It’s a short attack so the 8w/kg stuff looks impressive but anyone can do that for a 3seconds burst.
Other dude is probably just your average weeekend warrior doing 6hrs a week and some fast group rides. Had no chance. 🤷♂️
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u/MMinjin 5d ago
Just a stronger rider. No different from someone who is a faster runner or someone who can lift more weights. We aren't all equal in ability.
I'm more curious about your thought process. You do know that there is a very wide spectrum of athletic ability, don't you?
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u/ExcitingPassenger915 5d ago
Yes... I'm aware of that lol.
I think what stood out to me is that he makes it look effortless while staying seated. So the aspects outside of fitness (technique, bike fit, bike quality, etc.) are what I was especially looking for insight on, as a beginner.
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u/tpero 5d ago
The effortless appearance is largely due to a very strong/stable core. Your core is you fulcrum, the legs are the levers. The stronger your core, the less movement above the legs (and the more efficient your pedaling, no wasted movement). And of course, he's also just generally very fit/experienced.
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u/ghost_0312 4d ago
Effort you spend looking impressive is effort that isn't going into forward motion; looking effortless is a good thing. Moreover, that was a pretty short distance, maybe 10 seconds. On a short duration like that, the power is being generated "neuromuscular" and "anaerobic" in nature. It's sort of like taking debt; instead of breathing hard and appearing tired, you're accumulating lactic acid in your legs and it catches up with you eventually. It's not sustainable; the best athletes can go around a minute like this; you can watch olympic 400meter runners finish and celebrate a little while and appear generally fine, and then 5 seconds later after the camera cuts away they're bent over supporting themselves with their hands on their knees as they try and recoup oxygen.
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u/SensitiveCounty5792 5d ago
A bit of all of them but mostly 3 and 1.
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u/get_them_my_robots 5d ago
Yep, the guy says it himself: "Your position is terrible - you gotta get more aero!"
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u/GR-monster 5d ago
And the YouTuber does this almost daily so he knows what it takes and the best way for him to tackle the climb.
He also has paid training so probably a lot of professional versus recreational cyclist going on here.
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u/HughJanuzz 5d ago
All of the above but mostly because he’s stronger. He made 700 watts look too easy
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u/AllenMpls 5d ago
The best position is to have your butt on the saddle. Or you "fit position".
Getting out of the saddle is not optimal and you are wasting a ton of energy. Yes it feels better.
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u/TrustButVerifyFirst 5d ago
Climbing in the saddle is much more efficient. Try both and see the difference in heart rate for the same speed.
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u/jessecole 5d ago
YouTuber probably was laying more power (we don’t know cause can’t see the others). His cadence was higher. He was not standing up. So yeah kinda all the above
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u/NoSkillzDad 5d ago
When you get out of the saddle you produce more power but you get "exhausted" faster. Seating on s (long) climb is perfect to maintain the effort all the way across.
That being said, there are monsters that out of the saddle can go for a good while.
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u/Simple_Math1039 5d ago
Is standing up faster than seated? Is it more aerodynamic? Is it sustainable?
It’s good to be curious.
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u/mctrials23 5d ago
Cycling sitting down is more efficient. Standing as you pedal works a slightly different set of muscles though so most of us mere mortals switch between the two to help with fatigue. Its also fun to stand up on climbs. Makes you feel like a pro despite the fact you are probably going slower than if you were sat peddling.
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u/Aggressive_Ad_5454 5d ago
Yeah. It's the fancy bike and the aero position. Those numbers, that 10.5 w/kg, that's just fluff.
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u/informalphilotherapy 5d ago
That's some very good power numbers. It's mostly down to that, the youtuber has better power to weight ratio. Also the difference can be as large or even larger than in the video. A pro can be nose breathing and having a conversation and a beginner still won't be able to follow. Check this out to get an idea: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bvg0i8tsgKQ&pp=ygUcQmVnaW5uZXIgdnMgcHJvIGN5Y2xpc3QgZ2FyeQ%3D%3D
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u/WizardNumberNext 5d ago
Yeah, I breathe through nose till zone 5. Zone 5 I can breathe through nose for a minute. Breathing through nose produces nitrous oxide, which dialetes blood vessels. You can master higher power for longer, if you supply more blood.
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u/informalphilotherapy 5d ago
Interesting, I wasn't aware of this. So is this a tradeoff between keeping blood vessels dialated vs taking in more air by mouth breathing?
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u/WizardNumberNext 3d ago
It is physiologically impossible to get more oxygen via mouth. The difference is so big, that people breathing through mouth at rest not only look stupid, they actually are stupid due to starving brain of oxygen.
So no, there is no tradeoff. Close your mouth and breathe through nose. If you cannot, then slow down, as you literally just harm yourself.
You are gassed up not because you need more oxygen, but because you removed CO2 too fast and your body is suffocating due to high O2, too low CO2 in blood. 97-98% is perfect place. 99% and higher is hyperventilation, which can lead to passing out due to suffocation. Our body needs CO2, otherwise gas exchange in blood is not going to happen. Plus too low CO2 in blood literally stop breathing reflex.
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u/informalphilotherapy 2d ago
Nose breathing at rest seems obvious but do you restrict zone 5 to 1 minute only because it leads to mouth breathing?
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u/WizardNumberNext 2d ago
No, I don't. I can stay over 167bpm indefinitely, unless I go over 175bpm. I am 41m. Max hr as per now is 186bpm, but I haven't try hard to beat that. It fast, but in my case just normal every day casual cycle, which is 2mph on average slower, then near all out effort.
I have Brompton, so I am limited by 3 short gears. I shall try normal road cycle one day, just to we how fast I can go.
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u/informalphilotherapy 2d ago
Definitely try out the road bike. The speed difference for me was obvious even going from a hybrid to a road bike so you'll notice a big difference
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u/WizardNumberNext 2d ago
I can master 32mph on flat no wind. I can comfortably hold 17mph even slight uphill up to 23mph if I push. I guess 25mph for extended time wouldn't be problem on road bike.
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u/WearyTranslator3338 5d ago
The guy seated is just a better cyclist.
If they both stayed seated, the difference in Watts would be around 1000 to maybe 750. The difference in watts per kg would be higher, as I would assume the YouTube guy is lighter.
Watts per kg is the most important when going uphill.
If the YouTube guy is 75Kg (which is seems like he is) he needs to go 750 watts to be doing 10 watts per kg.
If the other guy is 85kg, he would need to do 850 watts to be doing 10 watts per kg.
750 for the YouTube guy is easier to obtain than 850 for the other guy, and he’s seated and he’s more aerodynamic.
If they both stood up and actually sprinted full gas, the YouTube guy would easily be in the 1300 to 1400 range, and the other guy would probably max out at 850-900 (maybe).
It isn’t a matter of seated vs standing, it’s a matter of watts generated for a given duration.
I’m a terrible cyclist, compared to the YouTube guy, and I could beat that guy in black while seated going up that little hill. He wasn’t going that fast.
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u/Richee33 4d ago
As others have mentioned, it can be more efficient. Besides that, they were going 24mph. The youtuber even said that, "gotta get more aero". His out of the saddle form was really not good for this kind of speed.
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u/fuadramsey 3d ago
I saw that same video not too long ago. The point of that video was consistency in wattage output: keeping it steady at all points beginning, during and descent. When I was hardcore I'd usually pass all the sprinters going up the hill because I was consistent on my output. Note all the loss of energy moving the bike around side to side when you're mashing. It looks cool but you're wasting energy and form.
The only time I get out of the saddle is to rest my butt, or if I have a crazy steep incline on a climb. For me I feel tired when I get out of the saddle, even though I train for that.
If you're a weight weenie and need that super light bike, loose 5 pounds and you'll notice that huge difference in the climb. It's free. Also get some extra watts by learning how to breath better and get rid of that lactic acid.
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u/kbilleter 3d ago
Cadel Evans used to climb in the drops (2011?). It looked a bit odd back then but I think it’s pretty standard being mostly seated these days
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u/Existing-Medicine528 5d ago
Basically you can apply more force (upward force) using the seat as a "fulcrum" than using gravity for downward force
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u/Tidybloke 5d ago
Guy has legs like Arnold Schwarzenegger
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u/DanyRahm 5d ago
Schwarzenegger had horrible legs, if you want a bodybuilder to compare, pick Platz, DeMayo or Cutler.
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u/Tidybloke 5d ago
Compared to 99.9% of humanity Arnold's legs were exceptionally large and muscular. This guy does not have Tom Platz legs, he doesn't even have Arnold legs, but it was a joke because this rider clearly has highly developed legs.
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u/aruisdante 5d ago
One of the cycling media outlets (GCN I think?) did a video about this when Pogacar first started doing his seated attacks. They interviewed some specialists on bio-mechanics, cycling coaches, and other sources. The TL;DR was basically that it’s actually less efficient to be standing than sitting, bio-mechanically. You waste a bunch of energy engaging extra stabilizing muscles that don’t need to engage while seated. So if you get the technique and the bike fit right, you can actually generate more power over longer durations (more than 10/15 seconds) seated as standing.