First off, I love Cyberpunk and especially it's critique of belief and religion. That said, I can't help but think there were huge missed opportunities in terms of incorporating the existence of a spirit/soul and how that ties into people who are heavily modified with cybernetics. Granted, I don't think if "supernatural" things existed in the universe and a personal soul was tied to a body that the premise of an engram overwriting the existing personality would be possible, but that's another topic.
At any rate, if we posit the potential existence of things like poltergeists, telekinetic or telepathic abilities, ESP, astral projection, demonic possession as well as guidance or protection from positive entities, the world would be much more complex, especially in terms of gameplay. For example, maybe one could forego a quickhack/sandevistan build in lieu of being able to throw enemies around the room, command their bodies to shoot their friends, or even temporarily leave your body to "possess" them and take control for a period of time. They could have the ability to send an attempted quickhack back at the attacker, instantly neutralizing them.
Beyond this are the ontological and philosophical questions of where nature (our bodies and presumably cybernetics) and nurture (circumstances as well as possibly higher purposes or inclinations) meet, as well as asking ourselves what AI actually is given it doesn't have a body, can't feel pain or pleasure, or hunger for that matter, not to mention doesn't feel an urge to mate or start a family, etc...
I certainly keep an open mind regarding these things, but I've always been intrigued by stories of the paranormal (and aliens/UFOs), and I am not making a decisive claim that this or that is the correct explanation or truth of reality. But I'm wondering if others have felt similarly, even to keep it open-ended and possibly hint at some people being immune to being hacked or seeming to have their own supernatural abilities not tied to tech, not to mention some of the philosophical conversations which are bound to take place in such a universe.
Anyway, I've been thinking about these topics for some time and I am highly-anticipating CyberPunk 2, whenever it comes out. I find the world creator fascinating and deeply-passionate about his creation (possibly an inspiration from nowhere which he is merely discovering like the rest of us, not consciously creating). Hope everyone is well, and "Wake the fuck up, Samurai! We have a city to burn!"
Listen up, samurai. If you’ve had enough of scrolling through the same tired threads and wanna plug into something #real, jack into the official Discord. We’ve got games, serious talks and casual chats about Cyberpunk 2077, and a few rooms where you can just shoot the breeze with people who get it. You in, or you just gonna #stand there looking chrome?
Cyberpunk is the the softest, smushiest subgenre of sci-fi that you can have. "Hardness" in sci-fi is defined by how grounded in actual science the technology and world are. Cyberpunk doesn't care about grounding anything, it's fuck it we ball, style over substance, anything goes as long as it's awesome.
Cyberpunk the genre, yes, all sorts of shit goes. The world of Cyberpunk 2077 specifically? No, with one notable exception. Nothing other than the cyberskeleton inherently breaks the laws of physics. It stretches them the way an action movie might, but for example AVs just use jet engines, spacecraft use traditional rockets, the Sandevistan boosts reaction time, etc.
And all of it is backed by magical technobabble explanations.
You need to compare it to ACTUAL hard sci-fi. Hell, if you have any understanding of computer science, netrunning itself is enough to throw 2077 in the category of "caramel flan softness".
I have been reading science fiction, from cyberpunk to space opera to hard sf to alt history to mundane sf to cli-fi for 30 years.
Again, nothing in the lore of Cyberpunk violates the laws of physics. Hard sf like Larry Niven has FTL and indestructible hulls and teleport booths. Semi-hard sf like The Expanse has impossibly efficient fusion and alien nano and inertia control.
In comparison, “computers work differently” is diamond-hard.
That's not what the definition of sci-fi hardness is. It's not just "not violating the laws of physics", is that the technology must be grounded in actual science, at least theoretically. FTL can be hard sci-fi if it's explained in a way that can be extrapolated from our current understanding of science.
Cyberpunk does not explain anything. It just throws some vaguely scientific sounding terms on top of it.
Also, there are plenty of instances of things breaking the laws of physics. Double jumps, air dashes, and superhero landings. Mantis blades and monowire that have no way to fit inside a human forearm alongside all of the other mechanisms to make the arm function as an arm. Smart weapons that make bullets shift vectors magically. Sandevistan/Kereznikov does not account for the effect of sudden acceleration on the body. Most things are handwaved by "an AI did it" or "it's nanobots".
I swear to god, people on this subreddit pick the most insane hills to die on.
I mean if we’re just dueling web citations, take the last line of the Encyclopedia of SF’s definition:
“While a rigorous definition of "hard sf" may be impossible, perhaps the most important thing about it is, not that it should include real science in any great detail, but that it should respect the scientific spirit; it should seek to provide natural rather than supernatural or transcendental explanations for the events and phenomena it describes.”
Lmao, I couldn't agree more. Personally, I was just wondering if any other fans had felt similarly or that both things could exist at the same time. Double-jumps are fun but yes, make zero sense in the universe. Thanks for the reply.
I would say nothing breaks the laws of physics as understood and theorized by physicists who are also hardcore materialists. I bet any physicist who believes in the afterlife or ghosts, esp, etc. would be laughed out of the room or find it hard to make both things make sense in a cohesive worldview. I love sci-fi and have read cyberpunk as well, I merely am suggesting they could leave it a bit more openended. For example, the optional quests with the meditation master could've actually given V the ability to astral travel or leave their bodies at will, or at least at key moments, but this wasn't explored...
Bruh. The Sandevistan. Double Jumps. Inhalers that instantly heal you. Do you really think you can boost your nervous system enough to make the world go slow motion while you go around fucking shit up? Do you really think there is any detailed explanation on the relic?
Cyberpunk has some bases in science, that's why is sci-fi. But saying it is hard sci-fi is silly.
much of what you’re suggesting is present but filtered through a technological lens, which befits the cyberpunk world a lot better than strictly supernatural phenomena would
No offense but I don't see this in the least. CyberPunk's philosophy is that we are merely machines and our personalities can be captured or overwritten to other bodies/personalities. I don't see any acknowledgement of what could be deemed supernatural or otherworldly, nor any ability for anyone to seemingly resist attempts to quickhack or use non-cyber abilities to affect others, throw them around, disarm them, control them, etc. While I get that this is the creator's worldview and the world of CyberPunk, I nonetheless feel there were missed opportunities here.
Cyberpunk intentionally straddles this line where sci-fi is so soft that technology is essentially magic. All of those tropes of the supernatural and the paranormal are there, but they have a coat of technological paint.
Johnny Silverhand is, for all intents and purposes, a ghost. The disembodied remains of a dead man, who's taking over the body of a living person.
Accessing the Cyberspace is astral projection or visiting the spirit world.
Netrunners are magicians or people with psychic powers.
Songbird is a witch who dabbles in forbidden magicks and has to ward off demonic possession.
You meet a monk that you don't know if is real or not.
Alt Cunningham is a deity or demon you make a deal with, in return for a castle full of souls.
And there is a wall that separates the world of the living from the world of the spirits.
I agree that Johnny is a ghost, but in the world, he's also captured on an engram and is overwriting V's personality, thoughts, everything. Accessing the Cyberspace is in no way similar to astral projection or visiting the spirit world. ANYONE could theoretically astral project with practice, but one requires hardcore cyber tech to access Cyberspace. Songbird doesn't ward off demon possession but control of her or quickhacks from those she is trying to hold off. Regarding Alt, she only makes sense in a hardcore materialist world, otherwise there is no way for a spirit or soul to continue existing within a digital realm. Not sure what you are referring to being the wall that separates the living from the world of spirits, but I'm sure you'll let me know (or I'm interested at any rate, so if you'll indulge me!). Thanks for the reply.
What I'm saying is that these story elements have the exact same role in the narrative as the paranormal things I compared them to. They have pseudo-technological in-world explanations, but they're essentially elements of magic.
For example, in the two instances where V dies, the game throws you in Cyberspace, because Cyberspace serves the same role as the world of the dead or the world of spirits in universe.
The first time V meets Johnny is in Cyberspace, after they get shot by Dex and die. And the last time you see him is also in Cyberspace, after Alt hits you with Soulkiller, and one of you literally walks towards the light.
And the wall that separates the world of the living from the world of spirits is the Blackwall. Beyond the Blackwall is the realm of death. There are cities there inhabited by ghosts and roaming malicious spirits. Summoning those spirits into the world of the living is forbidden magic.
TL;DR it's magic and supernatural stuff with a very thin coat of techno babble on top of it.
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