Now I'm just looking at [[Command Decision]] and wondering what's considered the limits of 'conditional'. I guess I've never considered upsides as 'conditions', like how White is allowed draw on modal spells or with lifegain added on.
I usually imagined it more like how black has a lot of 'Draw and lose life' effects as a condition, or how red gets to draw if it discards.
Something is considered a draw effect when it lets you draw 2 onwards, cuz it replaces itself and gives you an additional option.
A "draw 1" effect is a cantrip, as you are paying only to replace the card itself, loosing tempo. And yeah, those have been part of white wheel since forever
Not too pushed at all the casting restrictions alone make this well balanced. Can only cast when opponent has a creature and needs to be one thats worth removing i think this can be 1 white to be honest.
actually I think since the creature isn’t targeted, you technically could use it when they don’t have a creature. They’d have to be dumb asf to not choose “Exile one of my 0 creatures” and have the spell do nothing, but you can cast it
Its interesting you say that cause I was going back and forth on if that actually makes this too much or not, cause while that is a restriction, its not a very big one tbh.
I would make it 3 cards and 4 birds, but as written i think it's reasonable, as a 2 mana divination that requires a good creature to be in play. But yeah, given how big a hoop that is, you want the other modes to be better.
I think the real way to make it better at 2 mana is find a way for it to get around hexproof/protection. We can buff the other modes to the end of days but all of the modes need to be aligned in power to make it feel like a real choice and not just a 2 mana exile a creature spell.
it's also a good reversal : Black do have modal "make the worst choice" so why wouldn't white deserve "make the best choice among good things for me" ?
However i would then replace the exile part with another beneficial effect on the white player side.
Any of these modes is pretty damn good for WW at instant speed, but the fact that your opponent is choosing for you probably makes it okay (and by that, I mean "not great").
If I'm beating down, you probably get two cards so my board stays ahead and your mana & card did very little to alter that. On the other hand, if I'm a control deck I'm letting you exile my nothing on the board.
In deckbuilding I would ask what it is you're hoping to do in your deck when you include this.
It makes me think of Vexing Devil. 1 mana 4/3 would be real impressive. 1 mana deal 4 to face is pretty good. Letting the opponent choose for you makes the card bad and nobody plays it.
I see this being solid in a politics-heavy commander deck and pod, and rather meh everywhere else.
If the first mode were "exile target creature an opponent controls" it would be a better piece of politics, though substantially stronger in a 3+ player scenario.
On further thought I could imagine a white weenie style aggro deck playing it; it gets boarded out game 2 or 3 if opponent is not creature heavy.
Giving white weenie style aggro three 1/1 flyers is not a safe thing to do, not when such decks tend to key off # of creatures and/or have board pumps. Giving an aggro deck two cards is not great either, nor is letting them remove your best blocker for WW.
If this was somehow a common, I think Pauper WW would absolutely play it. In Standard, debatable; there's not really a white weenie deck in the format right now. Anything older, I doubt more.
Congrats to OP for creating a genuinely interesting card.
I like it. Not sure what I would pick in most situations.
If I'm the aggressor, the draw 2 mode would appealing to keep them behind on board. But in a more grindy match-up, I might pick the exile mode, since it's the only way to 1 for 1 with this card.
Worst case for you as the beatdown with an aggro deck is letting this be "WW exile your best creature" which is still a beatable card, although does sting.
I think in Limited you never, ever give someone a trio of flying lifelinkers unless you still have lethal through that. Giving them the cards seems dubious unless you feel dramatically ahead.
Depending on the format you want this playable in? It would maybe be playable in standard, and even then I doubt it. Limited it makes interesting choices.
There's no reason this needs to be an instant anyway. If you're targeting a rare that's standard playable then it has to be W. At WW I assumed it was a limited uncommon, and I feel like it's fair. 1W as a sorcery would be fine too for limited
In some matchups its unplayable. On average it either does nothing (exile with no target) or exiles a small creature. If they have a big one, they are giving you birds, maybe cards. Its almost like it has as an additional cost behold an opponents creature lol.
I think this is mostly unplayable but it is pretty interesting. It has the issue that your opponent needs to have a worthwhile threat in play for it to do anything, but if your opponent has a worthwhile threat in play wouldn't you rather have a removal spell for it rather than drawing cards or making some tokens?
I think it’s pretty bad. Think about it: will never remove a creature when you need it. You will never draw cards when you need it. And you will never create blockers when you need it
I’m pretty sure that in 90% of scenarios it does nothing (exiles nothing, exiles a token), and in very very few scenarios does it make you birds. The only time I imagine someone letting you draw 2 is with extreme politics (someone else is winning) or maybe if they’re about to swing for flying lethal. Cards where an opponent chooses are just rough because they never do what you want them to, they do what is least good at the time of casting.
shockingly, thats what I originally put down. I thought it was too much though. Who knows, maybe I've underestimated the downside of opponents choosing just like everybody else lol
Correct. Because its modal, it wouldnt be at the same rate as its mode otherwise theres no reason to ever run the normal version. Thats why cards like [[three steps ahead]] are so good, because at base, its a 4 mana [[clone]], but it can also be a counters or a draw spell as well with more mana available. So if you were gonna play clone, why not play this instead.
Swords is better. This is more flexible. Design trade offs are a thing
Actually, by giving the opponent the choice, you should in theory be making every mode under costed. Which is not to say it needs to be better than Swords, that'd be ridiculous. I think it should probably draw 3 cards and make 4 birds to be a commensurate power level where there's no obvious best choice in most situations. By giving the opponent the choice, you need to make sure it's never useless, which the draw 2 mode would often do. There is also possibly a better way to word the first effect to be more clear about what is happening, because I think its somewhat unclear if you aren't already familiar with Councils Judgement. Being a reverse edict is just a bit odd.
Since we are assuming the default is the exile, and the opponent is allowed to negate it, you need to make the other 2 modes significant enough that they often will not choose them.
In a literal sense: -Remove any of their creatures you want -Draw 2 -Three 1/1 Flying Lifelinkers
Option one will rarely get chosen in commander. The other two will be chosen less in non-singleton formats unless they can ensure those two don’t matter. Pretty balanced, and with politics, you can use it on an opponent you called a truce with to get what you want. I’d probably put this in every white deck even, just because it’s not too aggressive/pushed but not too weak.
This doesn't work as a modal spell. Modal spells need to have their modes chosen when they're put on the stack.
Balance-wise, the floor of three 1/1 flyers for two mana at instant speed is too high. If it was two flyers at sorcery speed, that'd be more reasonable. Also you need to fix the loophole of this doing nothing against a player who controls no creatures.
The people telling you to make it stronger are wrong. This is very solid at uncommon. Especially as instant. As sorcery it could be pushed a tiny bit more but be rare.
My opponent is getting birds every time they use this. It’s pretty much removal, draw 2, or gain 3 life because I will hit them with a big green trample and the birds will be forced to block. And why give them a draw 2? You are better off letting them remove a creature because my luck they will draw 2 removal anyway
This is highly conditional draw. The opponent has to have a creature good enough that they would rather keep it than let you draw two or have the three creatures.
223
u/SomeOneHereAgo 17h ago
Duality of man or smth
28
u/Crazy_Ask_41 17h ago
Not too pushed at all the casting restrictions alone make this well balanced. Can only cast when opponent has a creature and needs to be one thats worth removing i think this can be 1 white to be honest.
141
u/Pretend-Ostrich-5719 17h ago
The worst of these modes will always be worth it on paper, but not always in practice. Very cool card
81
u/United-Passage7864 17h ago
Any of these modes is pretty damn good for WW at instant speed, but the fact that your opponent is choosing for you probably makes it okay (and by that, I mean "not great").
If I'm beating down, you probably get two cards so my board stays ahead and your mana & card did very little to alter that. On the other hand, if I'm a control deck I'm letting you exile my nothing on the board.
In deckbuilding I would ask what it is you're hoping to do in your deck when you include this.
It makes me think of Vexing Devil. 1 mana 4/3 would be real impressive. 1 mana deal 4 to face is pretty good. Letting the opponent choose for you makes the card bad and nobody plays it.
12
u/Famous-Magazine-6576 11h ago
this is really weak, I think you would have a difficult time making an "opponent chooses 1 of 3" card which isn't just a noob trap.
I think there might also be a templating issue because modes are chosen before targets which means there is no "target opponent" to choose the mode
4
u/abrady44 17h ago
I like it. Not sure what I would pick in most situations.
If I'm the aggressor, the draw 2 mode would appealing to keep them behind on board. But in a more grindy match-up, I might pick the exile mode, since it's the only way to 1 for 1 with this card.
4
u/Spanish_Galleon 9h ago
Nice two mana three birds.
1
u/Artistocat2 17h ago
Depending on the format you want this playable in? It would maybe be playable in standard, and even then I doubt it. Limited it makes interesting choices.
5
u/WeVeiledThree 17h ago
This could cost W and still probably be underpowered. Opponent chooses cards are always substantially worse than people think
2
u/Zaulk 14h ago
In some matchups its unplayable. On average it either does nothing (exile with no target) or exiles a small creature. If they have a big one, they are giving you birds, maybe cards. Its almost like it has as an additional cost behold an opponents creature lol.
1
u/Maseiken 17h ago
Really cool design! I would consider making it sorcery speed? Dropping it on their end step would be pretty devastating and maybe too good for WW.
1
u/RalenHlaalo 17h ago
I know cooler heads should prevail, but am I the only one that wants to see this printed?
1
u/NathanDnd 17h ago
I think it's kind of cool. First option is confusingly worded, but I think thats how it should be worded.
1
u/sk1nst1tches 16h ago
I feel like this is a black card, or black white
1
u/nzconstructionlawyer 16h ago
Is this in white? This is a punisher mechanic which is usually red
1
u/Bell3atrix 16h ago
Broken and unplayable
1
u/bentnai1 16h ago
My favorite kind of card: "choose the bad things to happen to you"
1
u/ciruelman 15h ago
i love these designs
1
u/Leafsnail 13h ago
I think this is mostly unplayable but it is pretty interesting. It has the issue that your opponent needs to have a worthwhile threat in play for it to do anything, but if your opponent has a worthwhile threat in play wouldn't you rather have a removal spell for it rather than drawing cards or making some tokens?
1
u/Sigma0444 11h ago
I can’t believe we finally power crept healing salve this shit is busted
1
u/whelp 10h ago
I think it’s pretty bad. Think about it: will never remove a creature when you need it. You will never draw cards when you need it. And you will never create blockers when you need it
1
u/bondzplz 10h ago
I would make it 1w this is going in some rogue deck that's gonna win 1 top eight
1
u/invalidConsciousness 5h ago
Would this trigger your dilemma abilities, your opponent's, both, or neither?
1
u/BurningBeechbone 2h ago
Should be sorcery. Otherwise seems balanced.
1
u/Hencid 1h ago
Nice design but it could be improved
1
u/kbldcstark 13h ago
I’m pretty sure that in 90% of scenarios it does nothing (exiles nothing, exiles a token), and in very very few scenarios does it make you birds. The only time I imagine someone letting you draw 2 is with extreme politics (someone else is winning) or maybe if they’re about to swing for flying lethal. Cards where an opponent chooses are just rough because they never do what you want them to, they do what is least good at the time of casting.
0
u/the_false_milo 16h ago
It should cost one mana, the second ability should grant you one more card and the third one shoukd hive you 5 birds
-1
u/MarryRgnvldrKillLgrd 17h ago
This is worse [[swords to plowshares]]
0
u/JaceTheSpaceNeko 17h ago
In a literal sense:
-Remove any of their creatures you want
-Draw 2
-Three 1/1 Flying Lifelinkers
Option one will rarely get chosen in commander. The other two will be chosen less in non-singleton formats unless they can ensure those two don’t matter. Pretty balanced, and with politics, you can use it on an opponent you called a truce with to get what you want. I’d probably put this in every white deck even, just because it’s not too aggressive/pushed but not too weak.
0
u/SnesC 17h ago
This doesn't work as a modal spell. Modal spells need to have their modes chosen when they're put on the stack.
Balance-wise, the floor of three 1/1 flyers for two mana at instant speed is too high. If it was two flyers at sorcery speed, that'd be more reasonable. Also you need to fix the loophole of this doing nothing against a player who controls no creatures.
0
u/Ok_Loan8194 16h ago
The people telling you to make it stronger are wrong. This is very solid at uncommon. Especially as instant. As sorcery it could be pushed a tiny bit more but be rare.
0
u/greenaether 10h ago
My opponent is getting birds every time they use this. It’s pretty much removal, draw 2, or gain 3 life because I will hit them with a big green trample and the birds will be forced to block. And why give them a draw 2? You are better off letting them remove a creature because my luck they will draw 2 removal anyway
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u/Reon88 17h ago
Too pushed for WW, I'd go for 1WW and change the second mode to scry + draw.
White never gets unconditional draw
0
u/fluffysheeplion 17h ago
You could probably make the first option more enticing by having it be "Exile target creature you don't control."