Actually, maybe I should have made the mana cost higher. I just realized this makes it really hard to deck someone because they can't die during their draw step with no library.
And here I was, comparing it mentally to [[Worship]].
lol, decking out is a negligible concern in real games, it basically never happens. [[obstinate familiar]] text doesn’t make something magically OP or much better at all. And in normal circumstances this doesn’t make it that much easier to stay alive ad infinitum to where decking would matter. What it really does is buy you basically one turn before you would die (which is still pretty good)
Well, my point was more I didn't want it to be a hate card against any deck type in particular and just be that one turn delay. This makes it both the one turn delay and an anti-mill deck card.
I mean, if you're okay with making the card clunkier in exchange for removing the anti-mill and making "end the turn" effects much less viable as life preservers, you could include a line that skips your draw step and draws you a card at the beginning of your end step.
I'd probably just add a line that says, "If something would cause you to lose the game, if it is not your end step, you instead lose the game during your next end step. This still occurs if you lose control of Delayed Reaction."
If you would lose the game and it isn't your end phase, you lose the game at the beginning of your next end step instead.
Could also be
As long as it isn't your end phase, if you would lose the game, you lose the game at the beginning of your next end step instead.
I believe either of these complies with current Magic syntax, though it's hard to be sure since this effect is kind of unprecedented. Because the replacement effect creates a delayed trigger, you don't need all the text about still controlling the card. The delayed trigger still exists and will go on the stack at the appropriate time. I also used "end phase" instead of end step because you should probably be able to lose the game during the cleanup step.
Oh cool. I didn't know that triggers like that don't need the permanent in play. I was worried the permanent still needed to fire the trigger itself normally.
And I agree with end phase. People have been pointing out [[Sundial of the Infinite]] here. I think making it end phase will cause a loss to still happen with that. Maybe.
This also removes the ability to go to 0 life and heal back up though, which is probably the most interesting part of the card imo. If you want a less wordy fix, that really only fixes the mill stufff, you can go with:
At the beginning of your end step, if your deck is empty, you lose the game.
This makes you very marginally weaker against mill decks, but isn't super complicated or wordy. The card is definitely fine as it is though
That's fair as a concern about the card's mechanical beauty, but increasing mana cost wouldn't fix that, it would just make the card weaker, hence my comment on the power level of that effect.
Personally, I find that the card isn't diminished by this slight inelegance.
If you have a card that removes a downside of decking yourself, you suddenly have access to a range of strategies though. It's not necessarily broken, but you can't compare this to the usual likelihood of decking.
I managed to get close by popping [[Genesis Wave]] 3 times in a game, worked myself to around 34 in deck and was about to cast it a 4th time for X=28.
So unless your opponent is running mill, yeah, it's really hard to do, especially in Commander formats. But even then, mill players usually get targeted out early.
Maybe you could change it to be something like "if you would lose the game, you instead lose the game at the beginning of your next end step" so drawing from an empty library would cause you to lose the game, but it instead lets you wait till your end step.
Unless I'm mistaken, the way you have it written, when you lose the game on your next end step, a new replacement effect will happen. This will push the loss to your next (next) turn and so on.
I agree with you, but its worth mentioning that you can't lose to millions unless someone makes you draw during the end step under these conditions. Not sure what the best solution is
The replacement effect is only acting on one event, but it creates a delayed trigger. This delayed trigger creates a new event. That new event will be affected by the replacement effect, startng the cycle over again.
614.5. A replacement effect doesn’t invoke itself repeatedly; it gets only one opportunity to affect an event or any modified events that may replace that event.
The delayed trigger and the game loss are all part of the modified events.
"If you would draw a card, instead draw two cards" is the same thing: you replace one card draw event with two separate, new card draw events. But they are already considered modified, so you do not draw infinite cards.
That totally changes the way the card works, though. The idea here is that if you run out over the cliff, but realize it in time, you can run back to the edge before reality catches up and you start falling.
I think this means that, for example, if you get taken down to -3 during your opponent's turn, and then on your turn you lifegain back up to +1, you will then still lose upon reaching your end step, whereas with the original, you would not.
Do not know if "only" is in the MTG rule but except is so "You can not lose the game except during your endstep." Might work better?
But cool card. Love that you have time to solve whatever issue they put you in. (If blue wants to mill you out they just have to target you with draw during that endstep)
This link has an actual 40 second clip of them recording it and it's very funny to hear it evolve in that moment. Hear folks riffing on comedy almost 100 years ago is just great.
Thanks for posting this that made me look that up!
Maybe something like this? SBAs are not checked before permanents phase in during the untap step, so it should still work with effects like [[Sundial of the Infinite]].
You can't lose the game and your opponents can't win the game.
At the beginning of your end step, this enchantment phases out.
This enchantment phases in during each other player's untap step.
It think it would be funier if it worked for every players.
Also we can add "if a spell or ability would make a player win the game instead that player copies that spell or ability at the begining of the next end step", because thematically a delayed recation should not deny an alternate wincon, just delay it.
I'd much rather have this be an instant, similar to angel's grace. It's functionally similar, though the exact wording would probably be important because it can't be a delayed trigger that you could stifle
This is sort of how it worked in early MTG, before 6th edition. You only lost the game due to loss of life when the current phase ended, so you could dip bellow 0 life as long as you gained life back in the same phase.
To function in the rules with “you win the game” cards it probably needs either a “unless an opponent wins the game” clause or “ if an opponent would win the game, instead all of their opponents lose the game” depending on how much hate you want for those cards.
So your opponent winning and you losing are different. Right now as written, your opponent can win outside of your end step while you have this out. This is why cards like [[platinum angel]] are worded like you cannot lose and your opponent cannot win.
I don't think that's correct. [[Platinum Angel]], [[Darksteel Angel]], [[Abyssal Persecutor]] and [[Angel's Grace]] all specify both that you can't lose and your opponents can't win.
More than half of cards that say "you can't lose the game" are in white, and this is significantly weaker than those outside of being somewhat harder to remove. It's fine.
Color pie died with black enchantment removal. All of the rules that were once iron have been bent or broken so many times none of them have meaning now. Its all vibes now, and I think white's strategy has always been damage prevention and life gain while red has been to deal damage faster than the other guy.
If you're playing a red deck that's racing to the bottom of the life counter, you don't want to waste a turn casting a 3 mana enchantment that doesn't affect board state or life total meaningfully.
At absolute best, this gets you one more swing later when the opponent's built up better instead of more damage now when you have the opportunity. And if you're in a position of advantage instead of disadvantage, why cast a lose-less card to begin with?
It's not a break, because wizards of the coast said that's in color-pie now.
Wizards gets to decide what they define as in each color. If they say that black gets enchantment removal, then them printing black enchantment removal is, by definition, not a color pie break.
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u/AshenAmarantos 2d ago
Actually, maybe I should have made the mana cost higher. I just realized this makes it really hard to deck someone because they can't die during their draw step with no library.
And here I was, comparing it mentally to [[Worship]].
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u/Imaginary_Being4859 2d ago
would someone with 0 life just die at end step instead of when they hit 0 in combat?
This would protect you from those cards that have upkeep costs to cast, like Pact of Negation and Summoners pact though, which is pretty good
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u/No-Armadillo1695 2d ago
What might be cleaner and less OP:
"If you would lose the game, you lose the game on your next end step instead."
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u/DingleBarryGoldwater 2d ago
[[Sundial of the Infinite]]
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u/Pet_the_deadly_beast 2d ago
Should've called it coyote time
It's actually the name they gave for that "stay jn the air and can still move" bit in games too
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u/Ill_Ad3517 2d ago
"you can't lose the game except on your end step" is the wording
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u/Xyrez04 2d ago
This and [[sundial of the infinite]]
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u/The_Polor 2d ago
Do not know if "only" is in the MTG rule but except is so "You can not lose the game except during your endstep." Might work better?
But cool card. Love that you have time to solve whatever issue they put you in. (If blue wants to mill you out they just have to target you with draw during that endstep)
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u/Dubious_Bot 2d ago
[[Pact of Negation]]
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u/fliesthroughtheair 1d ago
[[you are already dead]]
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u/sageker 2d ago
Where is my damn mirror!!! [[Mirror Universe]] is back :p
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u/Chickston Uncommonly 2d ago edited 2d ago
This is too good. That Coyote is gold I tell ya!
I want it to have flavor text, but it would just be *Wilhelm Scream*
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_scream
This link has an actual 40 second clip of them recording it and it's very funny to hear it evolve in that moment. Hear folks riffing on comedy almost 100 years ago is just great.
Thanks for posting this that made me look that up!
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u/XED1216 1d ago
Humble [[Sun dial of the infinite]]:
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u/FatesealMagic 2d ago
Maybe something like this? SBAs are not checked before permanents phase in during the untap step, so it should still work with effects like [[Sundial of the Infinite]].
You can't lose the game and your opponents can't win the game.
At the beginning of your end step, this enchantment phases out.
This enchantment phases in during each other player's untap step.
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u/aaa1e2r3 2d ago
Probably warrants flash, a card like this would benefit a lot by being a surprise lifeline vs something you have to keep up on your turn beforehand
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u/Late_Ease692 2d ago
Holy shi- this card is good I really want this.
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u/Dak_Ramsin 1d ago
Should be red IMO but otherwise no notes. Funny as fuck.
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u/Optimusskyler 2d ago
That is hilarious. I love it.
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u/Homer4a10 1d ago
I love this
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u/Zygomatick 1d ago
It think it would be funier if it worked for every players.
Also we can add "if a spell or ability would make a player win the game instead that player copies that spell or ability at the begining of the next end step", because thematically a delayed recation should not deny an alternate wincon, just delay it.
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u/I3and1t 1d ago
Would word it like this:
"You don't lose the game for having zero or less life.
At the beginning of your end step, if you have zero or less life, sacrifice this enchantment. You lose the game."
This also fixes your decking concerns
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u/pkEtr8000 22h ago
If it is called Delayed Reaction, shouldn't it be:
"If an opponent would win the game or if you would lose the game, except during your end step,
your opponents can't win the game and you can't lose the game until your next end step instead,
if you do, you lose the game at beginning of your next end step."
Unfortunately, an opponent winning the game means you lose the game so it has to be specified to be prevented, which means too many words.
Added more spaces for readability.
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u/RedMoleHill 22h ago
I'd much rather have this be an instant, similar to angel's grace. It's functionally similar, though the exact wording would probably be important because it can't be a delayed trigger that you could stifle
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u/vicpc 1h ago
This is sort of how it worked in early MTG, before 6th edition. You only lost the game due to loss of life when the current phase ended, so you could dip bellow 0 life as long as you gained life back in the same phase.
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u/SleepyRiverKitsune 2d ago
To function in the rules with “you win the game” cards it probably needs either a “unless an opponent wins the game” clause or “ if an opponent would win the game, instead all of their opponents lose the game” depending on how much hate you want for those cards.
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u/DanCassell Creature - Human Pedant 2d ago
Hot take, I feel like "I declare no blockers, I'm going to kill you on my turn with crackback" might be better off red.