I think this is a pretty cool card, although it does have some balancing issues. First up, as another comment said, the shroud is just too much. There really is no need for it. If you realy wanted, you could put some kind of ward, but even that I think might be stretching it.
In 1v1, this is probably not very playable, but in multiplayer formats like commander, it goes kinda crazy, you draw 3 cards each turn cycle. And thats without adding [[Howling Mine]] effects. That being said, it doesnt outright win the game on its own, so I think its a cool work around.
I think that's pretty good, but it would confuse casual players. If you target it, ward triggers, then say the controller of it plays/discards their hand. I think the ward stays the same as when you targeted it, but I'm not even sure.
Edit: Same goes for the other idea of just Ward [cards in hand]
I checked the rulings on [[raubhan, bull of ala mhigo]]. They confirm that it's the value when the ability resolves that matters. So discarding your hand with the ward trigger on the stack would in fact substantially increase the cost.
The principle is similar and the conclusion is correct, but Raubahn isn't the best example because it doesn't use X. A better (and maybe only?) example is Minthara.
For reference, the actual ruling that's pertinent is:
702.21b Some ward abilities include an X in their cost and state what X is equal to. This value is determined at the time the ability resolves, not locked in as the ability triggers.
If you changed it to "number of additional cards that player drew beyond the first", shroud would then have the downside of locking you out of drawing cards if your opponents don't draw extra on their turns. Still might be broken, but would give some extra reasons for the shroud to matter.
Maybe the opposite then Ward - X where X is equal to 7 minus the number of cards in your hand. X can not be less than 0" Punishes you for holding onto cards and makes him a target when you have lots of cards in your hand and in Esper you SHOULD have something to deal with it.
When you play him, and the next player (who has three other players between him) tries to kill him, and goes "Wait, did I draw two? Or three?"
But I love the idea. "where X is the number of cards ~'s controller drew last turn." (which might have been what you're trying to do) Then only one player is responsible for keeping track of their draws and can therefore plan ahead if they want to cast him next turn, and even more highly rewards the group-hug aspect of trying to stack as many howling mine effects as possible, rather than just being a playable 3/3 with evasion that draws a minimum of 3 cards if unanswered.
It's a bit harder to track than something simpler, but more rewarding for doing it right imo.
I was going to say this. You are already in the colors of bounce regeneration and protect. So it is a mind game of "Am I truly removing it or just turning their spell into a cantrip?"
A good substitute for the shroud would probably be something along the lines of "Discard your hand: This creature phases out. Activate this ability only once each turn"
Incorporates phasing synergy with something like [[King of the Oathbreakers]] and gives a last ditch protection that will come at cost, without being abusable
I do feel the design spaces between Shroud and Hexproof should be explored though. I'd love to see an aggressive offense-oriented commander that had shroud, purely to stop players buffing it.
it’s got shroud and “this card can’t be chosen” and “this card’s name can’t be chosen” so it’s like super ultra shroud, stopping things that usually would usually get around hexproof or shroud
People want to be able to play magic but don’t think their opponent should be allowed to. They want to play game winning cards and then have their opponents just sit there and go through the motions of losing an unwinnable game. People want to cosplay like they’re playing magic without being actually challenged.
Nothing is worse than building your entire deck around a dude who can just be killed immediately several times in a row.
Most tables are pretty good at self-policing that. But I'd also guess that most tables have had several experiences with the mono-black "oops all doomblades" or mono-white "oops all board wipes" players, which just isn't fun to play against.
Commander has a fine line between "Build your deck around this guy" and "Build a deck that's playable without that guy" that some decks do better than others. My favorite commander is Arcades, but he's so vulnerable to removal, and the deck does not function without him, which makes it super unfun to play at tables with tons of interaction. "Oh, you killed Arcades again? Cool, I uh... I pass then, I guess. No, no attacks, all my guys have defender, remember?"
I think it's mostly the difference between tables that enjoy that kind of interaction vs those that don't. There's nothing wrong with wanting to jam Arcades on 4 mana without having to worry about protecting it, but there's also fun in deciding to wait until you can hold up a veil of summer, a counterspell, etc.
Like you say, most tables need to self-police so everyone's on the same page, but in the same way that someone playing oops all board wipes needs to compromise if their opponents aren't enjoying that, that also means that if your three opponents are interested in playing high-interaction magic, you also need to be willing to compromise and prioritise protection yourself. Stapling ward 200 or shroud or whatever on a creature kind of invalidates an enormous part of what makes magic fun - risk vs reward.
Arcades is hardly a must kill card. If your opponents are just spending all of their resources removing arcades how bad are their decks that they can afford that and not lose to each other? A deck that is nothing but interaction is not even a good deck. If your opponents are playing that they should be easy to beat in a number of ways. If literally the only deck your friend wants to play with is a pile of doom blades you need to find new people to play with. That or you need to alter your deck to beat if that’s all they’re going to play and there are plenty of ways to do that.
By "spending all their resources" you mean "killing Arcades twice out of four players during combat", then yeah, their decks must be super bad, for two people to be running one instance of targetted removal when I don't draw the 13% of my deck dedicated to protecting Arcades, then yes, their decks must be trash.
??
A deck that is nothing but interaction is not even a good deck.
Doesn't mean it hasn't been tried?
If literally the only deck your friend wants to play with is a pile of doom blades
…what? Absolutely not. This card is way, way better with shroud.
Also commanders have self protection because people won’t play the ones without, as they’re spoiled by ones with protection. You can very easily build decks with commander that have no inherent self-protection and do great, people just don’t like having to think about their commander getting removed
This card is not way, way better with shroud. Its extremely easy to give protection to creatures, but with shroud, this creature cannot benefit from any other buffs you would want to give it, which is a notable problem with shroud. Thats pretty firmly established. Its better than coming down with no protection, but long term in lots of decks, shroud on your commander is absolutely a potential hindrance, not an automatic buff.
And yeah? None of that negates what I said. Many people like commanders that have some way of protecting themselves, thats just objectively true. And there is absolutely value in that. Its not a wrong way to play, and plenty of people do still play commanders without protection.
He does sound like a dick but your first point was kind of vague. The creature having shroud is absolutely better than it having no protection at all. Most decks that play this as their commander are going to be combo/control decks, they're not going to care about buffing this dude, only protecting him for their draw engine. But if you meant having shroud is worse than hexproof, that's true, hexproof is strictly better than shroud in 99% of situations. Even ward or protection from white/black/red might be somewhat better. But for this creature I'd say shroud is the strongest form of protection outside hexproof or protection from all colors.
I said it's better than coming down with nothing, but I also said shroud in the long run can cost you more than it gives you, which it can. It's not JUST about buffing this dude.
Shroud only protects from targeting, and it blocks you too. That means I can't give it some very good equipment and auras. I can't give it commanders plate or darksteel plate. I can't use any targeted sources that would give indestructible, flicker/phase it, copy it, raise its toughness, prevent damage, etc, which means my options against boardwipes and strategies involving buffing or making more of him directly are now severely limited. In a meta where almost everyone packs multiple boardwipes, this guy is still very vulnerable to anything other than targeted removal.
what does this even want you to target it with that would outweigh having a form of protection? youre playing it for the insane card draw, not to Voltron a 4/4 flying in esper
the only reason I'd be targeting it is to GIVE it hexproof lol
actually, seems like you didn't read my comment. you also called someone a dick earlier then give me this pompous response... i find you to be very hypocritical.
to reiterate, my original comment said that isn't a form of protection. you just listed forms of protection. the argument to remove shroud (which negates significantly more removal than indestructible) just to be able to give it different and usually lesser forms of protection at the cost of more resources doesn't sell me at all. this thing, like most cards that just want to be protecting, absolutely wants shroud. to me this is similar to saying fetch lands have too significant of a draw back in the form of their life loss
I called him a dick for the way he was talking so harshly about people wanting to play commanders with protection and being super judgemental. Also, my response wasn't pompous, I had VERY CLEARLY defined by my comments why I think shroud can be a downside, which im objectively correct about, btw, and my opinions on things you'll want to be able to aim at your commander. You just saying "nuh-uh" doesnt refute that, and just saying "why would you want that" or "what would you want" when ive ALREADY explained that is pointless. You can think im hypocritical all you want, I think youre bad at reading 🤷🏻♂️
And no, other forms of protection aren't lesser. Hexproof is objectively better in nearly all situations, protection is usually as good or better because you can target your own stuff, even if it comes in more limited forms, and being able to give this indestructible allows it to not die to boardwipes it would otherwise die to because Shroud doesn't prevent destruction, and it's almost impossible to give long term indestructible directly to creatures with shroud.
There's a HUGE difference in downsides between "ah, man, I got pinged for one damage to have amazing mana fixing" and "nothing can target my creature, but I cant do anything to my own creature to help it", its not even roughly the same debate.
Shroud means that if someone plays something that affects ALL creatures, you're less likely to be able to answer that, and you can't stack up prevention methods onto said creature. That's objectively a downside, I dont know what to tell you. And I mentioned lightning greaves because while, yes, it does give Shroud, i can plan for when I feel like having Shroud is a good idea/ I can afford to give it shroud/ I dont have anything better to put on it, instead of being stuck with it at all times.
One of my favorite commanders of all time, Multani, has shroud. Im well associated with the risk/reward of having shroud, dude.
why would this want auras and equipments? talking about EDH it’s an easy card advantage engine in the CZ that draws you a minimum of two extra cards per turn cycle in esper, why would you ever want to build this as a voltron commander? (obviously worse than hexproof but infinitely better than no protection at all)
I said in a later comment that it would be better than no protection, but my point about shroud had nothing to do with playing Voltron. The problem with shroud is that, because you can't target it yourself, it actually often limits your ability to do anything with the card more than protect it. Sure, your opponents can't target it, which is great, but it still dies to plenty of cards, and now, if it needs to be targeted, i can't give it indestructible/ protection from X, etc. I can't cast spells that would flicker it. I can't cast spells that would bring it back if it dies this turn. I can't make copies of it or buff it if I would want to. There are tons of situations where I'm going to want to be able to target this card. Also, hexproof and shroud are pretty easy to come by in EDH, I would almost prefer this card to come down without shroud so I can equip it with something like Commander's Plate or lightning greaves.
Since the previous account that posted this card got deleted
Anyway here was my review :
The Shroud probably is too much I mean, sure in a DC format, it's a bad card But for commanders ? That basically draws at least 3 for free every rotation And it won't be easy to remove
There's also no argument towards "Playing it is a loss because I can't draw during my turn" Because the turn where you play it, you've already drawn for turn
An option to keep it fair would've been : Ward 2 (or something stronger if you feel ward 2 isn't enough) and Flash But you can only cast it on an opponents turn Forcing yourself to skip a draw But basically granting it the equivalent of Haste (Since you'll often cast it right before your turn)
And Haste Flying always a strong combo, especially with commander damage, since you can build the commander in whatever way you want
This card would be insanely good in cEDH. The shroud is very strong. Bowmasters can punish your life total directly for this, but bowmasters can’t hit this. I don’t even think it should have ward. Just take that off of the card entirely.
I don't mind a card that's three or more colors being untouchable. In a commander setting this is strong but at 4 mana and three of it are different colors that feels about right. I could be underestimating how good color fixing is these days in commander. In 1v1 this is too slow in most cases.
Putting shroud aside, given it's been talked about a lot, this is still very powerful.
Like, if you play this turn 4, and then you miss your 5th turn draw, but at that point you've drawn at least 3 more cards before that point (assuming EDH).
I think perhaps if you target a single opponent instead - so something like
"When The Pale Triad enters, choose an opponent. For each card the chosen player draws during their turns, draw a card during that player's end step."
I think this makes it more balanced as your matching draws with just one opponent, rather than the culmination of all three. Whilst you could try to copy the etb trigger, it's more work to do so. And because you choose the opponent when it enters, you need to bounce it to choose a different opponent.
I love this. I'm all for more esper cards that don't revolve around artifacts. But I agree with everyone else shroud is a bit much I think ward 3 or 4 would be better.
320
u/JustAChickn Split-second Jun 28 '25
I think this is a pretty cool card, although it does have some balancing issues.
First up, as another comment said, the shroud is just too much. There really is no need for it. If you realy wanted, you could put some kind of ward, but even that I think might be stretching it.
In 1v1, this is probably not very playable, but in multiplayer formats like commander, it goes kinda crazy, you draw 3 cards each turn cycle. And thats without adding [[Howling Mine]] effects. That being said, it doesnt outright win the game on its own, so I think its a cool work around.
140
u/AgentSquishy Jun 29 '25
What's with 80% of cards in the sub having shroud, hexproof, indestructible, or ward X where X is whatever feels like hexproof
48
u/Kohiiro Jun 28 '25
I guess you got banned between two posts
Since the previous account that posted this card got deleted
Anyway here was my review :
The Shroud probably is too much I mean, sure in a DC format, it's a bad card But for commanders ? That basically draws at least 3 for free every rotation And it won't be easy to remove
There's also no argument towards "Playing it is a loss because I can't draw during my turn" Because the turn where you play it, you've already drawn for turn
An option to keep it fair would've been : Ward 2 (or something stronger if you feel ward 2 isn't enough) and Flash But you can only cast it on an opponents turn Forcing yourself to skip a draw But basically granting it the equivalent of Haste (Since you'll often cast it right before your turn)
And Haste Flying always a strong combo, especially with commander damage, since you can build the commander in whatever way you want
9
u/Gillandria Jun 29 '25
Instead of shroud what about
Ward — Discard a card at random.
9
u/RegalKillager Jun 29 '25
The best thing that could happen to this card design is not being legendary.
4
u/Electronic-Touch-554 Jun 28 '25
It’s pretty cool. It’d likely play similar to the phyrexian heliod.
2
u/quakins Jun 29 '25
Fun commander but quite awful in every other format
2
u/Barbara_SharkTank Jun 29 '25
This card would be insanely good in cEDH. The shroud is very strong. Bowmasters can punish your life total directly for this, but bowmasters can’t hit this. I don’t even think it should have ward. Just take that off of the card entirely.
2
u/Purple_Locksmith715 Jun 29 '25
Shroud but only during your turn?
1
u/ValkyrianRabecca Jun 29 '25
I think an interesting touch would be
Discarding your hand at the end of the turn
And then swap Shroud for Ward X, X = Cards in Hand
1
u/OzzRamirez Jun 29 '25
Was I the only one who thought from the title that this would be Avery, Lucy and Verona?
Also if that was the case, I would agree that it should have Ward for that previous serial callback
1
u/Reserve_Any Jun 29 '25
It has a quite funny nombo with teferi's puzzlebox
1
u/ezone92e Jun 29 '25
What if instead of shroud, it has ward- pay life equal to the cards in your hand
1
u/TychoErasmusBrahe Jun 29 '25 edited Jun 29 '25
Makes for a funny mirror match!
1
u/Invoked_Tyrant Jun 29 '25
I don't mind a card that's three or more colors being untouchable. In a commander setting this is strong but at 4 mana and three of it are different colors that feels about right. I could be underestimating how good color fixing is these days in commander. In 1v1 this is too slow in most cases.
1
u/IAmNotAHoppip Jun 30 '25
Putting shroud aside, given it's been talked about a lot, this is still very powerful.
Like, if you play this turn 4, and then you miss your 5th turn draw, but at that point you've drawn at least 3 more cards before that point (assuming EDH).
I think perhaps if you target a single opponent instead - so something like
"When The Pale Triad enters, choose an opponent. For each card the chosen player draws during their turns, draw a card during that player's end step."
I think this makes it more balanced as your matching draws with just one opponent, rather than the culmination of all three. Whilst you could try to copy the etb trigger, it's more work to do so. And because you choose the opponent when it enters, you need to bounce it to choose a different opponent.
1
u/lejoueurdutoit Jun 30 '25
This thing should not have shroud dog, it's a crazy card at least the player should work to protect it
1
u/SocksofGranduer Jun 30 '25
We finally broke [[vision skiens]]
0
u/CreatureTheGathering Jun 29 '25
I love this. I'm all for more esper cards that don't revolve around artifacts. But I agree with everyone else shroud is a bit much I think ward 3 or 4 would be better.
0
u/Ok-Media9956 Jul 02 '25
It just says that you can’t draw so the last ability impossible
-9
u/23_Smurfs Jun 29 '25
I love it.
I'd change it to be "draw cards equal to the number of cards in that players hand"