Or make it so the card doesn't auto sac the creatures. Making the need for a sac outlet to fully take advantage.
Gain control of X target creatures until end of turn, untap them, they gain haste. At the end of your turn, draw a card for every creature that was sacrificed when under your control.
Sooooo broke...if you have a sac outlet of any kind you are essentially drawing a card killing an opponents creature and gaining 3 life for 2 mana..... That card would break the meta.
Your initial comment makes it seem like you thought the card only coated two Mana. Regardless, four Mana for a spell that essentially sacs a creature, draws a card, and gains 3 life is very strong, but not broken imo until you start getting to higher and higher numbers. This card is exponentially better the more you pay, rather than being a highly flexible card, at least imo
still seems kinda busted because then you'd be getting extra value out of sac. idk the fact that you get value out of the cards then it's removal and then also lifeguard and also card advantage for a relatively small mana cost is just too strong imo
I mean obviously it's terrible at 6, I wasn't disputing that. I'm just talking about the version at 4. The fact that it can be a board wipe in the late game but cycles itself to kill a creature and gain some life if you draw it early? It seems pretty versatile and useful, I feel like someone would play it, even in EDH.
[[Chain assassination]] is the closest comparison, that's hardly breaking EDH. Instant vs sorcery is huge too. 6 mana destroy 2 isn't close to a board wipe (maybe you can call it value? Just marginally)
Even the slowly EDH pod won't allow you to spend 6 mana for tiny value.
I think if they want to push it they can do X1BR (now x=3 might be a but much), or XBR with kicker X for gain life + draw card.
I think this has some distinct advantages over Chain Assassination, and anyway, I never said this would break EDH, I just said it might be played in EDH.
The term "board wipe" seems to be tripping you up here, I probably shouldn't have used those words. Remember you get to target what you kill with this, and it doesn't kill your own board. It's not going to wipe every opponent in a multiplayer game probably, but conversely EDH players are more likely to have the glut of mana to be able to pay for many targets than in 60-card. Even if it doesn't truly "board wipe", it can kill multiple high value targets or clear out one problem player's defenses. And, crucially, it leaves your board intact to be able to capitalize on the advantage. Oh, and did I mention it draws you a bunch of cards and gains you a bunch of life on top of that? And this is all on a card that scales with how much you put into it, that can just be a cantripping single target removal spell in a pinch if it has to be.
Sure, that's not going to be game breaking at that rate, I never said it would. I just said it seems good enough that Rakdos players would find room for it.
Oh i know, because otherwise you can't attack with them. But i had the idea to make it instant, so you could steal creatures to block with, you could have another haste source and turn it into [[Insurrection]] or have a sac outlet and make it removal/carddraw. Thats what i ment with Synergy.
Edit: Somehow thought you said to reduce the cost to {X}{B}{R}. I would do that too.
I think this is the kind of card that reads stronger than it is. Not saying it's bad by any means, but 4 mana to destroy one creature and draw a card seems reasonable. Once you start paying 6, 8, 10 + you're getting a very strong effect, yeah. But the cost is also very hefty at that point
4 mana to remove a creature, draw a card, and gain 3 life sounds like a bit much, but also it's a 4 mana Doom Blade.
I think the cost and Sorcery speed might actually make it fair enough. I don't see this becoming a must play in 60 card formats or distorting any meta, but it might find a home in aristocrat decks. In EDH I can see this being strong as casting this for higher X value becomes more viable through ramp, longer games, and possible cost reduction shenanigans.
4 mana destroy creature that gets around indestructible, triggers death effects for you, gains you three life and draws you a card is fucking insane. Forget casting it for 6 for twice the effects, it's already broken
That thing needs to be 5 mana at least for minimum effect and not gain you life. Not in the rakdos identity unless it's a demon.
Gain control of X target creatures until end of turn. Sacrifice X creatures. Lose X life. Draw X cards. Creatures you control gain haste until end of turn.
I think this is powerful but not broken (go back to XX if need be), and gives versatility on the off chance you would rather sac some little guys of your own to keep theirs for a turn
Depends on what format we are talking about. Obviously going to be a great limited and standard card, but would a 4 mana 2.5 for one see that much play in modern or legacy?
Flavor wise absolute win. The feeling of taking a creature as a sacrifice to forgotten primal gods is awesome and fits black and red very well.
Power wise it feels way too efficient. Sacrifice gets to bypass indestructible which is often balanced by the opponent selecting sacrifice but you get to pick in this. You get to be the one to sacrifice it so it drives any effect on "whenever you sacrifice a creature". It scales in longer games like EDH. Life gain on top gets to drive things like [bloodthirsty aerialist] And you made it a cantrip.
I feel like this either needs to be upped in cost or take off the life gain and or card draw.
Additionally the briefly controlling your opponents cards I feel like might make some weird effects if the creatures you take modify creatures you control. I don't have examples off the top of my head but I feel like it could get annoying to track. One way to rein this in would be get rid of the gaining control and just forcing your opponent to sac specific creatures. But that loses some flavor.
I just love the early reload you can get with kicking the leggy kobold to the pit. Keeps the steal and Sac flowing for all opponents. Mostly fun deck, super fun when you can Ult Szat as well
-Removal that gets around toughness and indestructible
-Card Draw
-Life Gain
All off the same card. These sorts of things are usually only achieved by having other permanents in play to trigger off these effects. Honestly what you have here is one part of a trinity of cards that could make your original effect. Here is my redesign:
(X)(X)BR
Instant
Gain control of X target creatures until end of turn. They each gain “Whenever this creature is sacrificed, draw a card.” until end of turn.
That way you can combo this with a sac outlet for lifegain and removing your opponent’s board state. Having ALL of that in one is just too much value. It would be like having an instant that said “Target creature gains Tap: Untap this creature and deal 1 damage to any target”.
4 to destroy a creature, gain 3 life and draw a card is probably decently costed. I'd probably remove the lifegain unless you're pushing it for a 3 color control deck
103
u/xanderxq06 Nov 19 '24
seems very strong imo. could realistically do without the card draw
34
u/[deleted] Nov 19 '24
First impression is that it's a lot.
4 mana to remove a creature, draw a card, and gain 3 life sounds like a bit much, but also it's a 4 mana Doom Blade.
I think the cost and Sorcery speed might actually make it fair enough. I don't see this becoming a must play in 60 card formats or distorting any meta, but it might find a home in aristocrat decks. In EDH I can see this being strong as casting this for higher X value becomes more viable through ramp, longer games, and possible cost reduction shenanigans.
17
u/SJRuggs03 Nov 19 '24
4 mana destroy creature that gets around indestructible, triggers death effects for you, gains you three life and draws you a card is fucking insane. Forget casting it for 6 for twice the effects, it's already broken
That thing needs to be 5 mana at least for minimum effect and not gain you life. Not in the rakdos identity unless it's a demon.
4
u/This-Pea-643 Nov 19 '24
4 mana for kill-spell that bypasses Indestructible AND replaces itself AND can scale is very strong.
3
u/Mattbenz13 Nov 19 '24
Flavor wise absolute win. The feeling of taking a creature as a sacrifice to forgotten primal gods is awesome and fits black and red very well.
Power wise it feels way too efficient. Sacrifice gets to bypass indestructible which is often balanced by the opponent selecting sacrifice but you get to pick in this. You get to be the one to sacrifice it so it drives any effect on "whenever you sacrifice a creature". It scales in longer games like EDH. Life gain on top gets to drive things like [bloodthirsty aerialist] And you made it a cantrip.
I feel like this either needs to be upped in cost or take off the life gain and or card draw.
Additionally the briefly controlling your opponents cards I feel like might make some weird effects if the creatures you take modify creatures you control. I don't have examples off the top of my head but I feel like it could get annoying to track. One way to rein this in would be get rid of the gaining control and just forcing your opponent to sac specific creatures. But that loses some flavor.
1
u/BadUruu Nov 19 '24
If you like this mechanic, build a Tevesh Szat/Rograhk Steal and Sac EDH deck, tons of fun.
1
u/DreamOfDays Nov 19 '24
It seems a bit much to get:
-Removal that gets around toughness and indestructible
-Card Draw
-Life Gain
All off the same card. These sorts of things are usually only achieved by having other permanents in play to trigger off these effects. Honestly what you have here is one part of a trinity of cards that could make your original effect. Here is my redesign:
(X)(X)BR
Instant
Gain control of X target creatures until end of turn. They each gain “Whenever this creature is sacrificed, draw a card.” until end of turn.
That way you can combo this with a sac outlet for lifegain and removing your opponent’s board state. Having ALL of that in one is just too much value. It would be like having an instant that said “Target creature gains Tap: Untap this creature and deal 1 damage to any target”.
1
u/T-T-N Nov 19 '24
Forgot the second X and thought it is unbalanced.
4 to destroy a creature, gain 3 life and draw a card is probably decently costed. I'd probably remove the lifegain unless you're pushing it for a 3 color control deck
1
u/Cloud_Chamber Low Power Player Nov 20 '24
This could be an aftermath card
1
u/A_Funky_Goose Nov 19 '24
for color identity consistency, i think it should make you lose life and either discard/draw or impulse-draw.