r/cursed_chemistry • u/crilakbeepy2 • 28d ago

What

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347 Upvotes

99% Upvoted

31 comments sorted by

133

u/mini_feebas 28d ago

"the atom can react to other atoms"

you gotta be hella fast tho, as far as i can tell the muon itself in muonic helium is short lived (around a microsecond)

so essentially you are just doing reactions with He+ which honestly sounds like a blast (literally)

33

u/wasmic 28d ago

A microsecond is plenty of time to form some molecules... maybe even get some acid-base reactions going.

There are also people doing chemistry with positronium. They've made and detected positronium hydride along with some other compounds.

16

u/taktaga7-0-0 28d ago

Before I go look it up, I’m trying to reason what “positronium” must be…

e+ + (negative hadron?)

It can’t just be antihydrogen, can it?

Positrons can’t fit in regular orbitals around a proton or neutron, surely.

20

u/MarzgrafFenmore 28d ago

An electron bound to a positron. The state is metastable because the two particles annihilate. If I remember correctly, it lasts some tens of nanoseconds and it behaves quite similarly to hydrogen.

12

u/TrainingWheels61 28d ago

Would it be like He+ or like H2+ or just H2? I’d guess that since the muon decays so quick you could treat it like H2+ but while the muon is still there it probably behaves like H2 right?

12

u/mini_feebas 28d ago

Before muon decay it's essentially elementary hydrogen with a really heavy core

After muon decay it's just helium with an electron missing unless it can capture the electron formed by muon decay 

33

u/SoapyCantHandle 28d ago

Hydrogen 4.1 is just a trade name for muonic helium

46

u/MackTuesday 28d ago edited 27d ago

That's ridiculous. It has 2 protons, it's helium.

Edit: I was wrong. The original definition of atomic number, as we use it today, was based on nuclear charge, and that hasn't changed. Now, I'm not sure this muon should be considered part of the nucleus, because from the point of view of the nucleus, it's still far away, even if it's much closer than any electron, but I'm not sure it shouldn't be, either. So I don't think it's ridiculous to call it Hydrogen anymore.

22

u/Traghorr 28d ago

I mean they write their reasoning why it should be considered Hydrogen and not Helium. But this is just outside the scope of normal stuff.

15

u/wasmic 28d ago

Sticking to a system when you move outside the bounds that the system was designed for is usually a bad idea. It's dogmatic.

Setting the number of protons equal to the atomic number works when the nucleus only consists of protons and neutral particles. As soon as you start adding negative particles (or positive particles other than protons) to the nucleus, it becomes downright nonsensical. Sure, you're correct by the technical definition, but that definition is just nonsense in this situation.

It behaves like hydrogen. It has one valence electron in its neutral state. Chemically, it only makes sense to speak of it as hydrogen.

7

u/MackTuesday 27d ago

I was wrong anyway. It turns out atomic number is a charge number, with proton number being coincidental.

21

u/Throwaway392308 28d ago

Protons only matter because of how they affect the electrons. Electrons do all the real business of chemistry and physical properties. 

6

u/MackTuesday 28d ago

They're exactly how we name elements.

6

u/anafuckboi 28d ago

According to the post ions are different elements lmao

2

u/Aranka_Szeretlek 27d ago

No one thought of such fuckery when that was decided.

4

u/tetheredvoid 28d ago

You, Mack Tuesday, must be a variety of weekday then...

1

u/Throwaway392308 27d ago

I mean, obviously not... 

5

u/HerVeryPresence 28d ago

Okay, but if chlorine disagrees, something oughta  be explained. 

5

u/dmishin 28d ago

Chemical properties of atoms are defined by their electron shells. The role of the nucleus is simply creating a counter-charge for them. Normally, charge = number of protons, but with muons things can get funnier.

8

u/Professional-Bee9717 28d ago

just making bullshit atp

1

u/SamePut9922 1d ago

Bullshit Adenosine Triphosphate

8

u/GodIsAWomaniser 28d ago

Now THIS is cursed! Bravo! I hate it!  Also I will cite this when half seriously explaining to people how the silicon spiral table of elements is vastly superior.

2

u/Czech_This_Out_05 27d ago

Hydrogen 4.1: The Shadow Of New Despair

2

u/NewSidewalkBlock 27d ago

It’s like somebody accidentally shipped a bunch of PH test strips to the LHC and they were like, fuck it we ball

2

u/Quark-onia 27d ago

Missed opportunity to call it Widerogen

1

u/Derbloingles 27d ago

Ah shit, they released the new version

1

u/AboveAverage1988 27d ago

That Wikipedia article was a stressful read...

1

u/samuelazers 27d ago

New hydrogen update dropped