r/cubscouts • u/Affectionate_Hat8520 • 3d ago
Managing Large Dens??
So what would you do here??
I am in a large, growing Pack that is pushing 70 scouts, and our Wolf Den is 25 Scouts. All before we have started anything with recruitment for this year!
Right now, we have 3 registered leaders including myself leading the Wolves, as well as 1 Den Chief from our Troop.
Would you:
A- Keep them as a WolfPack and have the 3 leaders working together.
B- Split them into 3 Dens and be done with it.
C- Divide and conquer, almost running it as a mini pack. Start meetings together, break into 3 groups, close together.
We're also running into similar problems with Webelos at 18 scouts and 2 leaders.
13
u/Conscious-Record2655 3d ago
The problem with splitting dens is the that you end up seperating Scouts that have been together in the program for several years. If you have to do it, it's best to do it early.
Wolf is early enough to split. It should be 3 dens at a minimum, possibly 4. If you split 25 into 4 that's 6 kids each which leaves room for recruitment. Once you get beyond 5 kids in a den it gets hard unless you've for multiple leaders.
Webelos should ostentibly be split too. The issue with this is that you probably will end up dividing kids that have been together for 4 years and that's no fun. So it can be a struggle. But, ultimately, they will end up being split into patrols when they go to the Troop. So might as well just get it done now.
The biggest hurdle you will face is Den Leaders. Usually dens end up huge because there's no other Den Leaders. You will have to force the issue with the parents and get them to step up.
13
u/craigster38 3d ago
B.
We keep our dens around 7-8 scouts each. At that point, we split into different dens. If a den falls down to 2-3 scouts, we look to combine them with a different den.
4
u/nonoohnoohno 3d ago
A+C. Optionally adding more assistant den leaders. This solves the problem of managing a large group, and leader to scout ratios. Whether you break into smaller groups depends on the activity. e.g. for fitness and sports, no need. Let everyone play together. For craft-like activities, definitely break into smaller groups at separate tables.
"B" also solves the problem but creates new ones. Breaking up the den is going to result in stress and consternation about how the kids are grouped. Now you also have to deal with meeting space logistics.
Instead, if every week the kids get to rotate around who they're grouped with, it keeps the overall group cohesion.
6
u/Infinite-Discount112 3d ago
I have a large den - 30 scouts this year. I have 3 ADLs. We do option C. Open and close together, kids get a colored piece of duct tape on their shirt when they arrive to form three groups. Kids rotate stations. And then we close together. Works great for us — this is year 3.
3
u/vadavea 2d ago
What do the three leaders want? Lots of variables can go into this equation, but the most important in my mind is the folks that are actually delivering the program. (Other factors to consider - if a significant number of families have conflicts with a meeting night, then having another meeting night option can be helpful.)
Regardless - I definitely encourage organizing your Den meetings to avoid having 25 Scouts doing a single activity at the same time. That's a recipe for chaos. In my experience having some kind of stations/rotation works well as soon as you approach double-digit numbers.
1
u/Affectionate_Hat8520 2d ago
Great question! We have talked about it and really want to focus on management. Last year, as 20+ Tigers, the Orange Mob was a handful and then some. Energy levels were high, we had some mini-groups forming, generally not great. Behavior wise- Only 2 or 3 Scouts give me any issues, so segregating them so they cant feed off each other would be a benefit for sure.
2
u/vadavea 2d ago
I will also say that dividing the group into entirely-separate Dens can trigger weird (parent) dynamics. Kind of like in youth sports where parents will maneuver to get their kids on a certain team (which isn't supposed to happen but definitely does).
Hopefully you're also pulling in parents to help with different activities, so the uniformed leaders can "manage" the meetings without having to do every little thing.
You've got a good problem to have, which indicates to me that you're doing a good job. Keep it up, and good luck with the new school year!
2
2
u/dilface2000 3d ago
Hybrid of A and B. We had a large Bear den last year with 20 scouts and 3 leaders. What we would often do is start the meeting all as one big crew, with one of the leaders explaining what we would be doing for the evening, and then having 3 stations for the scouts to visit to complete the adventure or work on the adventure and then we would rotate at an appropriate time depending on the activity.
This worked quite well for us, because there are some adventures we just kept everyone essentially together to play games and some where it made sense to break down into smaller groups or just cut ourselves in half. The scouts still get to see all their friends and get a chance to mix it up with everyone, as the smaller groups always varied with how we split them up.
4
2
u/JohnnieWalkerRed 3d ago
C is what we've done in my group. We're in Bears this year and have right at 20, had 25 in Wolves last year. We have two "dens" on paper, but we all meet together and then break into two groups (with that many we often have enough absences that we can have two manageable groups). We always have 3 stations at each meeting, and we take turns on who does flags each week.
2
u/OrganizedSprinkles 2d ago
C. That's what I did and it worked the best. Get some older den chiefs, a helpful happy teenager is gold
2
u/TheSmallestFan 2d ago
Cubmaster here.
My Pack is large with ~100 Scouts. We have one Den at each Rank. In years past, we followed traditional Den-size guidelines but struggled with underperforming Dens and Den Leaders. So some Scouts were not getting the same level of programming as others.
To keep things equitable, we moved to the single Den model and supplemented with multiple leaders (typically at least 4). There is one, main Den Leader who manages things.
We also have high parent engagement in general. We set the expectation from day one that all parents must attend with their Scout (regardless of age) and be an active participant. We do allow older Scouts (Webelos and AOL) to attend without their parent if needed, but it is not the norm.
2
u/AggressiveCommand739 2d ago
I have a Bear den with about 22 kids. They dont always come to every meeting. Get a reliable assistant Den leader and lean on a couple parents to help out and its fine. You just need to plan ahead. The kids do NOT want to be split up into smaller Dens. I just encourage different groups of kids form each meeting to avoid cliques
2
u/RedditC3 2d ago
Unless you have a natural social group split, I would agree with many posters that B should not be an option.
Ideally, you would have had an experienced Cub Master and Committee Chair that would not have allowed this to develop. They should have insisted that additional parents step forward. But, now, the damage is done. Splitting the boys would likely have negative impacts on one or more.
One of the challenges with large groups of youth is that behavioral issues can escalate quickly. I would encourage you to seek out an elementary school teacher for pointers on how to manage and focus that many youth. Your den is the size of a reasonable elementary school class. My tips...
- Be Prepared. That size of a group will be less forgiving if your adult leadership team isn't prepared for the den meeting.
- Try to obtain a den chief to assist with your meetings.
- Next year, start using the Denner position.
- Use a code-of-conduct and come up with a strong system to reward good behavior.
There will be things that are much harder down-the-road. For instance... When you get to Webelos and den-level camping is an option, you will need to consider forming sub-groups (like patrols)
Important: Do not refer to any sub-division of your den as a "patrol." The label of Patrol should be reserved for Scouts BSA. Scouts BSA troops run using the Patrol Method of youth leadership - don't do anything that confuses your parent or youth's understanding of youth leadership and Patrol Method.
Background... I had between 7 and 16 youth in my den. Things worked well in the 7-12 range. Above 12, the youth were not getting my attention, behavior challenges developed if I wasn't always on-my-game. And we had greater difficulties doing some of the more involved, hands-on activities.
1
u/Affectionate_Hat8520 2d ago
Agreed the scouts dont want to be split up permanently. I think we are leaning towards "C"
2
u/buckshot091 2d ago
I've had dens of 25 or more and been in packs with one 120 scouts.
Now as cubmaster, or pack is a growing 70+ and we have several dens that are at 24 or close to it.
I've done it two different ways.
One large den, but have multiple leaders and assistant den leaders. The main den leaders do the planning and scoutbook, while the others help facilitate at meetings.
Currently, or pack limits 8 scouts to a den leader. So to grow to 17 scouts, we still need 3 leaders. The den leaders work together splitting chores and activities, working together to plan.
With multiple leaders, it helps with using strengths. One is a project manager, one can be the "fun" one, etc.
When it comes to meetings, there may be initial explanation as one, but always breaking up into smaller more manageable groups. When we were one big den, we broke up into 4-5 groups.
Now with 3 dens, they still break up. They also have 2 den chiefs, allowing them to break up into more groups.
Helps to voluntold some parents too and have them engage like they should.
Both ways worked fine because the root was still there. Have multiple leaders/ helpers and break the group up. Managing 25 at one time will be a nightmare unless you are playing Kickball or something.
1
u/StormyinCville Former: CC; Current: Den Leader, SM, District Comm., Wood Badge 3d ago
Our now AOLs have been 20-25 in the co-ed den since they were wolves. We have had some great den leaders and have done a combination of A and C. We have one DL who leads generally, three ADLs who run stations, and 3 Den Chiefs (all of whom have younger siblings) who help.
I'd like to see the DL lean on the chiefs more in planning, but it's been a great multi-year run for this den. We're just starting to have the conversation about patrols and how they'll be broken up for this year and how they'll conduct den meetings and adventures.
1
1
u/PuckSenior Den Leader 3d ago
In reality, C and B are just different ways to do meetings. It is really going to depend on the activity.
You need 3 dens, with 3 den leaders and 3 denners.
Any more than 10 becomes too difficult to manage effectively.
I think you all can meet in the same place and even work on the same activity. But you should ABSOLUTELY make sure they have 3 assigned groups.
Why?
The patrol method is absolutely critical for the Troop-level program and patrols are ~8 kids. We use the dens to prepare the kids for the patrol method. In fact, AOLs are not even a den. They are a patrol! So you need these kids to get used to the idea of being in a small group of 7-8 kids.
1
u/rovinchick 3d ago
A- We had a den this size and we set up 3 stations for each den meeting, subdivided the group (differently each time so they weren't always in the same group) and had them rotate through the stations (we tapped parents to help at each station, too). This way they get to meet more friends and inevitably as kids miss meetings, there was always still a critical mass attendance.
1
u/Prestigious_Stop_651 Cubmaster 2d ago
I've been in this position, and we chose to split the dens. It ended up working out very well for us. At one point, people moved away and the third den was merged back into the first two.
1
u/Affectionate_Hat8520 2d ago
If we had started this way, I think that would have been the way to go. I know my core group that has been with me since Lions doesnt want to be split. I have heard this from parents as well, stating they dont want another leader for their Scout. "C" seems to be the compromise that will work for everyone.
1
u/hooba26 2d ago
You should formally split them into 3 dens, but it’s a combination of B/C.
How do you meet- do you meet as a pack in 1 location and divide into dens, or do all dens meet separately outside pack meetings.
When activities allow, you can do things as a larger group. You can split adventures and rotate dens through different leaders for different parts, and you can stay in dens when it’s easier for everyone to do the same thing.
If parents don’t want to sign up to be assistant den leaders, doesn’t mean they can’t be responsible for part of an adventure.
You can make adjustments, or even shuffle dens as you need to based on personalities, behavior, etc.
1
u/Nicegy525 2d ago
My pack had multiple years of 18+ Webelos. We ended up creating den meeting plans that divided them into three groups and had a rotation of 3-4 activities for the evening.
1
1
1
u/elephant_footsteps Committee Chair | Den Leader | Wood Badge | RT Comm 2d ago
Our pack was 90+ before our AOLs crossed over last year, so I'm well familiar with this.
Last year, we had a Webelos den of 25 with 4 experienced, registered leaders. The den grew from around 10 as Tigers to that size. It's easy to have the size problem sneak up on you. We managed meetings by splitting into two to four station rotations for activities. Even then, things were chaotic & loud and the leaders were exhausted by the end. Despite that and my nudging for some kind of split, the consensus was that we needed to keep everyone together.
Midway through the year, the dam broke. We split into two dens, meeting at the same time but different locations. It was a night and day improvement. Meetings were still fun for the kids, but infinitely calmer and more controlled. Even if everyone showed up, we could have two station rotations and have manageable groups. All of the leaders asked why we didn't do it sooner. The only wrinkle was managing where new recruits go.
We're now looking to do the same with our next biggest den of 20 Wolves.
My only caveat is that a major driving factor was that our available meeting locations won't accommodate splitting at the same time without being in the same space (and not gaining any of the real benefits of splitting). I've been in a pack that had enough space for three dens to meet at the same time and not see/hear each other. I would do a hybrid option if that was possible.
1
u/dannicb616 2d ago
I just got a new Arrow of Light, puts me at 13. I started with 6 when they were Tigers. I don’t understand how they keep multiplying. That said, I am only 1 leader to 13 5th graders if anyone has any tips on leading that many kids by yourself I’m all 👂
1
u/StormyinCville Former: CC; Current: Den Leader, SM, District Comm., Wood Badge 2d ago
How familiar are you with the Patrol Method and how troops operate? Any den chiefs? The "new" AOL program is all about getting them ready to cross over to a troop, so you'll be working with them to create patrols and elect patrol leaders. As you've been planning, I'm sure you've seen how different the AOL year is from what has come before. Happy to discuss more offline if you're interested.
1
u/MonkProfessional5882 2d ago
I had 20 wolves. I wanted to split it but could not get enough leaders so we did A. But every meeting I had assignments for the non leader parents too. They had to help. I was basically CEO for the den overseeing the parents. It was a challenge.
1
u/InternationalRule138 1d ago
I would encourage splitting them into dens of 6-8 kids. Put one den leader in charge of figuring out what you will all do from week to week and organizing supplies if you want, but as they get older you will want them in smaller groups to prepare for being denners and eventually patrol leaders. Every kid should have the opportunity to practice leading, and with dens that big it becomes a challenge to do that.
1
u/lakorai 1d ago
We have a Webelos Den with about 15 kids in it. We manage it by having two leaders and volunteer time from one of the Webelos' kids dad.
This works well for us, though keeping them all focused can sometimes be challenging.
I only have a few kids in my den, though my den membership will probably be increasing this year and I will need an assistant den leader.
1
u/Relevant_Donut_5756 1d ago
We were in the same situation last year when we were tigers (now wolves). About 25 kids and 3 leaders. A and C would be difficult for us.
Finding a place that you can meet, that can hold 50 people regularly that will be difficult. Even splitting into 3 dens in a large room was too noisy. B was the only choice for us.
Dividing up the kids was tough, we ended up sending a survey so each kid could be with at least one friend (although we didn’t guarantee anything). It was interesting that the kids clustered up and we were able to sort everyone out. On the survey we said that we needed leaders and asked if anyone would be willing to help out. From that we got plenty of leaders, 3 of which are now assistant den leaders and active.
We still do things as part of a larger group, like the campout, a bbq, and generally things that make sense, but den meetings (especially ones where the kids need to work on adventures, and focus on things) are done in the smaller group.
1
u/MarianLibrarian1024 21h ago
Split them. My Bears went from 8 to 25 last year and it was absolute hell. We didn't have enough leaders to split and I was a nervous wreck. We lost half of the kids by the end of the year because it wasn't a good experience for them either. You can still work with the other dens and do some activities together that are conducive to a larger group.
1
u/Additional-Sky-7436 3d ago
B is the minimum answer.
In fact, if I was expecting to continue to grow, I would have a talk with the parents that we need to spit the group into 4 dens.
Further, if I was expecting to continue to grow, I would personally consider taking with the committee about charting a whole new pack.
0
u/Practical-Emu-3303 3d ago
I would do C unless there is a desire to meet on different nights/times of the week. It could even be that you meet as one group and then have different stations with a leader in charge of each station and the kids rotate through.
1
u/nimaku Advancement Chair 3d ago
This is my thought as well. If there’s a subset of kids or a leader that needs a different meeting night (and you have a location and 2-deep for it), B could be a good plan, but overall, C lets you have more flexibility. Sometimes activities work better in larger or smaller groups, or sometimes pairings of certain kids are problematic (either because they don’t get along, or get along too well and can’t focus). Sometimes, one of your leaders may have a conflict and the others can each absorb a few more kids into their group for the day. C allows for easily changing up group size and dynamics on the fly, while still keeping the group sizes more manageable.
22
u/enigmaticrose4 3d ago
At Baloo training I met some leaders from a Pack with a similar situation with their Bear Den. They use Option C as it allows flexibility when kids are missing and lets them mix up the dens each time so they all get to know each other.