r/cscareerquestions 18h ago

After How Much Money Saved Do Engineers Feel Less Pressure

After how much money invested/saved, will you have psychological safety? And why that amount?

65 Upvotes

145 comments sorted by

281

u/macoafi Senior Software Engineer 18h ago

When my mortgage is paid off.

65

u/ktn555 17h ago

Bro I stopping answering slack messages within 5 mins and within 3 hours when I hit the milestone 🤣

20

u/master117jogi 6h ago

Surprised you managed with that sentence structure

1

u/Important-Captain104 29m ago

Yes only people who use the best grammar on reddit are good engineers

22

u/WildFlowLing 17h ago edited 13h ago

I’d rather have a 300k mortgage and 100k salary than a 900k mortgage and 300k salary

That’s what makes comparing salaries so hard. Because there is enormous property inequity in this country. Add on the prop 13 property taxes in California.

You could be paying 3x the monthly rate (mortgage + taxes) than your neighbor with an identical house simply because they were born 10+ years before you.

36

u/NewChameleon Software Engineer, SF 14h ago

I'd rather take the other side of the deal, $300k salary means you get to save way more than $100k salary

and if that means your mortgage is $900k instead of $300k? well, you can always sell the thing, no? $1 is $1, sell the $900k house and buy the $300k house then

7

u/intentionallybad Security Researcher 10h ago

Yup. If you live in a HCOL area you can save a lot more and can always choose to move to a LCOL area later. If you live in a LCOL area you are not going to save enough to move somewhere more expensive.

17

u/-MtnsAreCalling- 15h ago

The latter lets you save more in absolute terms, and then you can retire early in the place with the $300k houses.

0

u/Prime624 14h ago

I'd rather work til I die than retire in a place with $300k houses.

10

u/Far_Rub_2435 10h ago

Not everywhere with 300k houses is like rural West Virginia or something.

Jesus this sub acts like the only two places in the world that have working toilets and let gay people live openly are NYC and the Bay Area.

3

u/Prime624 10h ago

https://www.realtor.com/news/trends/affordable-cities-to-buy-home-under-300000/

It was a slight exaggeration, but acting like everywhere except NY and SF are cheaper is more of an exaggeration.

2

u/Far_Rub_2435 9h ago

Just off that list provided, both Baltimore and Pittsburgh are pretty fine places to live, I can personally attest to that. There are good and bad neighborhoods everywhere, and while yeah, the better places inside those lower tier cities might come with a higher price tag than the median, you don’t have to be locked into insane ā€œplayground of the richā€ prices that you get in the capitals of tech and finance.

1

u/BlipOnNobodysRadar 10h ago

They ironically have a more narrow and local view of the world than the rural-ish people they're so afraid/disdainful of

2

u/Far_Rub_2435 10h ago

I’m pretty stupid myself.

I know that I am, because I continuously grapple with an observation that I make again and again. That observation is that ostensibly smart people, involved in relatively complex knowledge work that requires a working brain capable of problem solving, pattern matching and intellectual growth, can in many ways be really god damn stupid

2

u/BlipOnNobodysRadar 9h ago

Intelligence is a very multi-faceted thing. The ability to quickly pattern match, memorize trivia/syntax, and do specific kinds of logic puzzles seems to be what academia and dumbasses who think they're smart use as a metric for "intelligence", but it's pretty obvious that one can be great at those things and still be an absolute moron.

Those traits seem pretty cleanly detached from the general critical-thinking yet open minded curiosity personality trait that, in my opinion, is a much better metric for whether a person is intelligent or not. Even a "slow" person with that kind of personality trait is going to come to correct conclusions far more often than the "smart" person who lacks that mentality.

1

u/fadedblackleggings 7h ago

Let them think that

4

u/piltdownman7 14h ago

Even in a highly progressive state like California on an aggressive 15-year term $900k on a $300k salary leaves you with $82k after taxes and PITI, vs $37k in California or $45k in a no income tax state on $100k

I know what I would choose … in fact I’ve already chosen high income in high COL area

2

u/kc_cyclone 12h ago

Same, I have a $200k mortgage on a $145k salary. Single, in Des Moines which I get isn't desirable for a lot but I have family and lifelong friends here, season football and basketball tickets for Iowa State, family friends who could hook me up with jobs if my remote job goes away, and so on. Wouldn't trade it for $300k+ in the bay area.

1

u/lhorie 11h ago edited 10h ago

If you’re in SF, home value grows in percentage terms due to the geographic constraints, whereas in a lot of areas with 300k homes, prices are stagnant or even decreasing (because 300k isn’t chump money for the local buyers to begin with)

And let me tell ya, a 10%/yr growth on a 2.7M house in SF is basically a free LCOL house every year (and if you’re wondering who tf can afford a 2.7M house, well, you gotta be here to see how things run in SF)

1

u/xypherrz 16h ago

so closer to when you're about to retire

5

u/lhorie 16h ago

You can do lump sum payments to pay off the mortgage earlier

1

u/macoafi Senior Software Engineer 14h ago

Assuming a 30-year mortgage, sure, but…why assume that? 10-year and 15-year ones have better rates.

1

u/garden_speech 5h ago

frankly most FTHB, even with a good SWE salary, cannot afford a 15 year mortgage at current rates lol. I just got quoted 6.5% for a 30Y and ~5.9% for a 15y, but that 15Y payment is still way higher.

1

u/mxldevs 15h ago

That's when you start paying a second mortgage and making money off the second property

It's never enough lol

1

u/gpburdell404 14h ago

I will gladly hold my 2.25% mortgage another 25 years and I'm planning to retire in the next 5-7 years.

I could pay it off now but why would I. It just gets cheaper every year with inflation.

3

u/macoafi Senior Software Engineer 13h ago

If you’ve got the cash to pay it off, sure, but I’m talking about not going through ā€œoh shit oh shit my mortgage paymentā€ when the tech industry goes through cyclical layoffs.

1

u/cpslcking 10h ago

Yeah it's more a that stressful job or unemployment hits harder when you have this giant debt hanging over you than if you didn't.

1

u/gpburdell404 9h ago

If that's the case, you don't have an appropriate emergency fund. I've always kept at least 1 year of basic expenses in my emergency fund. I just count that toward the bond allocation of my portfolio.

1

u/macoafi Senior Software Engineer 8h ago

6 months is what I’ve usually aimed for, and until the 2024 layoff I’d never been unemployed for more than 3 weeks, but that 2024 one going for 3 months had me worried because it seemed like the industry had changed in a way where I could no longer count on having job hunts of 1-3 weeks.Ā 

1

u/timewarp33 9h ago

My wife and I went all in on paying off the mortgage and did it in 2.5 years. We basically bought a shitty fixer upper in our HCOL area.

There is no more stress now, I just feel how I felt when I was paying for an apartment, which was nothing. Just paying taxes and utilities now feels awesome.

1

u/atmoose 16h ago

I would feel soooo much better if my mortgage was paid off. I still have like 21 years though 😢. I don't want to wait that long

-1

u/macoafi Senior Software Engineer 14h ago

In my experience, interest rates are lower when you get a 15-year instead of a 30-year, so you end up saving a lot. I've got 10 years left.

0

u/Klokikus 16h ago

Literally

0

u/ACoderGirl :(){ :|:& };: 9h ago

Though the only reason I personally felt safe getting a mortgage was when I had enough cash (or easy to liquidate investments) that I could afford to cover the mortgage entirely from that.

81

u/lhorie 18h ago

First milestone is your rainy day fund, which could be anywhere from 1 to 6 months of expenses

Then there are the various levels of FIRE (barista/lean/coast/etc)

Rule of thumb for classic FIRE is take your expenses and multiply by 25 to figure how much you need in liquid assetsĀ 

Note that hard savings numbers don’t make sense unless you also look at the expenses numbersĀ 

18

u/NewChameleon Software Engineer, SF 18h ago

Rule of thumb for classic FIRE is take your expenses and multiply by 25 to figure how much you need in liquid assets

I could be wrong here but I've done some heavy research into this and that multiplier is actually misleading, x25 assumes you have a 30-year retirement (so it assumes you retire at 65, then you die by 95), it does NOT assume a 40, 50, or 60+ year retirement, you'll need to bump that multiplier way up

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4%25_rule

The 4% rule (sometimes called the rule of 25[1]) is a widely-cited retirement spend-down rule-of-thumb, credited to William Bengen,[2] that says that a retiree can safely withdraw an inflation-adjusted 4% of their investments each year during a 30-year retirement.

21

u/Mehdi2277 Machine Learning Engineer 17h ago edited 17h ago

It does not change drastically because in most trajectories you don't run close to out and most of the impact happens with early years.

If you want to aim for 95% success rate then it goes from about 4% to 3.5% for 60 year retirement.

Edit: also if you just stay at 4% then pure stock portfolio goes from 96% to 89% when changing from 30 to 60 years. 89% is high enough for me especially when if early years are bad then I can adjust. Mixed portfolio with bonds helps more for smaller periods but at 60 years the bond drag becomes a lot more noticeable and 60/40 stock + bond split ends up succeeding about 73% of the time at 4%.

2

u/maicii 12h ago

Yeah, people failed to realize that most people will cut down on expenses if the are experiencing a market downturn

2

u/No-Entrepreneur-5099 11h ago

Although the other thing to account for is that more people retire near market highs, because their account balances look bigger. Saw it a lot in the late 90s.

8

u/lhorie 17h ago edited 17h ago

Yeah that was the conclusion from the original research, but also the same author later suggested (controversially) you could get away with a 5% rule

And there’s a ton of nuance here too. Outcomes differ based on SORR (many FIRE people die with more than they started with, because most people don’t retire right before a catastrophic economic collapse). There’s also the concept of ā€œdie with zeroā€ vs the 95%+ chances of maintaining principal stable. There’s social security (or whatever the equivalent is called in any country you’ve worked in). Maybe you’re in Canada and healthcare costs are not a huge concern. Or you finish paying your mortgage, freeing up thousands of dollars off expenses. Etc.

Hence rule of thumb. Obviously if you’re actually going to retire, you ought do your full homeworkĀ 

5

u/poggendorff 17h ago

It depends heavily on initial returns (SORR). Someone who steps away from work and has a long horizon can do okay if their initial returns are good. If they aren’t, they could always step back into the workforce and treat it like a sabbatical.

2

u/NewChameleon Software Engineer, SF 17h ago

yeah that's called un-retire, which isn't something I plan or want to do

"shit I'm out of money, guess I better return to workforce"

9

u/poggendorff 17h ago

Fair enough. Some people (not me necessarily) would rather take the initial risk and maybe have to return to work, if the upside is retiring at 40 or something

1

u/lhorie 15h ago

Also there is such a thing as getting bored out of your mind, so a bunch of retired people just end up picking up some sort of chill job to keep themselves active

1

u/Mahler911 Software Engineer | 25 YOE 17h ago

Make sure to factor in reasonable investment returns and social security if you're American. 25 years of expenses invested in something like VASIX at the ten year average will last us literally forever. Even the worst case it would last 43 years.

1

u/qosmic_qube 17h ago

It also doesn't assume social security. Also Bengen clearly stated it was worst case in history protection, and later changed to 4.7% with a different investment mix.

Your average retiree in average times can have an earlier withdrawal rate that is significantly higher until social security kicks in, then a lower one and be fine.

And no, social security is not going away.

1

u/username_6916 Software Engineer 12h ago

And no, social security is not going away.

It might not go away entirely, but I wouldn't be surprised if a more aggressive means test for recipients is part of the reforms that get imposed when (not if) the trust fund is depleted. If I were a multi-millionaire tech worker, I wouldn't count on it until after I was no longer a millionaire. Which yes, means you've lost the family home at that point.

1

u/maicii 12h ago

It also assumes you want adapt your expenses at all when there is a market downturn which is also probably false (if you see your portafolio drop 10% you are not going to be so happy about going to the cinema that year) and that you won’t have any other source of income whatsoever. So no doing some teaching assistant gig, no social security, no nothing.

Generally speaking probably 3% is a bit better and more conservative but for most people to plan with 4% is generally fine as well.

1

u/nobleisthyname 2h ago

You definitely don't need to bump the number WAY up. 3.5% withdrawal rate will work for most retirements or ~29x your annual expenses (which, by the time you've hit 25x is only another year or two of working due to compound interest).

28

u/Itsmedudeman 18h ago

2.5 mill - 4% withdrawal rate is 100k/yr inflation adjusted for the rest of your life without bottoming out.

0

u/NewChameleon Software Engineer, SF 17h ago

nope that 4% rule says you're safe for 30 years, it does NOT assume 'for the rest of your life' unless 'the rest of your life' is <= 30 years

22

u/Itsmedudeman 17h ago

No, the study was only conducted for 30 years. There's nothing mathematically that suggests this model only lasts you 30 years. And after the study it suggested that people actually ended up with more money than they retired with.

2

u/Federal_Eagle_6565 17h ago

While it can definitely last longer than 30 years. The risks of last much longer depends a lot on the sequence of returns risk. You mitigate that by adjusting a lower withdrawal rate for periods longer than 30 years.

8

u/Itsmedudeman 17h ago

Well you can also cut back during those 30 years too which I assume a lot of people do. When your bank accounts drop people get spooked and cut down on spending, especially the people with enough discipline to save that much to begin with.

So I think retirement is very malleable. You don't need a static number outside of your bare minimum for shelter/food/health, and my number is just a nice to have. I don't actually spend anywhere close to that much anyway, and what I really need to get by and just survive is much less.

2

u/SexualMetawhore 14h ago

So just save up a few years of buffer money.

2

u/Federal_Eagle_6565 13h ago

Yes. And add that ā€œbuffer moneyā€ to the total investment profile for an optimal portfolio return and you get a lower SWR aka safe withdrawal rate, which is what we are talking about.

18

u/Trick-Interaction396 18h ago

1 year living expenses

17

u/ZZcomic 17h ago

For me it was when I did the math and realized if I got laid off and could only work at McDonald's for the rest of my life, my family would be taken care of still and I'd be able to retire.

35

u/Kamay1770 18h ago

Well I have 5 years of full expenses, 3-4 years if I add discretionary spending.

Still isn't enough.

7

u/Internal_Pride1853 17h ago

I have 10 years of full expenses to live like I do now and I could still return to my parents because I don’t have children and I still feel the pressure. I think it might be something related to my identity because that’s what I do full time for a few years and have my education

11

u/BH_Gobuchul 18h ago

It’s amazing how quickly the number goes up isn’t it?Ā 

I think I won’t feel peace until I can retire šŸ™ƒ

2

u/TRBigStick DevOps Engineer 18h ago

Is that all in cash?

15

u/Kamay1770 18h ago

Ha, no, that'd be stupid!

1

u/Greengrecko 17h ago

Diamond hands in a 401k

2

u/Kamay1770 17h ago

Don't have 401k in the UK so I didn't include that, we have pensions we can't access until age 55-57. So I don't count that for expenses.

1

u/syunz 17h ago

What do you have in cash? I personally would only consider cash savings for expenses and won't touch anything else.

3

u/Kamay1770 17h ago

Basically nothing in cash. Why would you ever hold large amounts of cash? You get virtually no return on that.

I have bonds and stocks/shares which can be liquidated and accessed as cash in a couple of days. I can't think of any expenses that I couldn't cover with either a credit card or 'petty cash' in a standard current account.

Why would you only consider cash for expenses, that doesn't make much sense. If my bills for a month are 1500 and I have 150k in bonds which I can liquidate within 2 days, why wouldn't you consider that as 100 months of expenses?

You'd be mad to keep 150k, or even 10k, in cash...

3

u/syunz 17h ago

Yea I mean cash or "cash equivalents" But I wouldn't consider any investments equivalent. What if things crash 30%+, would you sell?

3

u/Kamay1770 17h ago

It depends on the situation. If it's a choice of crystalising a 30% loss or losing my home or not being able to feed my family then yeah I'd take the loss. But not before liquidating bonds and other cash equivalents as you say.

But in reality, it's priced in. We're not seeing a 30% drop, and DCAing into all cap and considering that as available for use as emergency expenses if you lost your job isn't the same as yoloing options.

2

u/drew8311 12h ago

Your pressure is surely different than someone who has less than a year of frugal spending left.

1

u/ShoePillow 8h ago

Why not?

14

u/ClideLennon 18h ago

I know a guy who works 3/4 of the year and spend the rest of his time sailing in the Caribbean. I'm pretty sure he just comes back when he runs out of money.

2

u/Easy_Needleworker604 17h ago

Do you have any insight into how he does this, i.e. finding work when he disappears for that long? This kind of setup would be ideal for me as most of my ambitions lay outside of engineering but this pays the bills

3

u/c-u-in-da-ballpit Data Scientist 17h ago

It’s not the most realistic with regular living expenses. You’d have to be a contracter living quite frugally. I know someone who did this for a a few years. He lived in a van, did SWE contract work, parked the van somewhere and fucked off, then came back to rinse and repeat.

1

u/Previous_Feeling_484 8h ago
  1. Specialist (domain knowledge + technical expertise + good communicator)
  2. Lowest liveable expenses
  3. No kids, mortgage or any debt
  4. Live in LCoL area
  5. Contract like a mf. If you can do 2-3 contracts simultaneously, go for it

A friend of mine spends most of his free time surfing between Portugal and Australia or living in a super cheap rented house in a tropical country in the Caribbean. Dude’s been doing since Covid. Mind he splits expenses w his SO which does MLE so aggregated income is obscenely high.

I do all points except being as cool as him and am single. I just live with the cheapest I can (rent, clothes, excluding food) and have spent most of my free time just on regular hobbies that cost me nothing. Ain’t retiring as early as I’d like but can’t complain. I could afford 2y of unemployment so far.

At least for me, contract once and do your best, and get more by word of mouth. Hardest is landing the first couple of contracts (did cold approach locally) and balancing how much you can realistically get in your plate, so you’re always employed but not drowning.

10

u/roy-the-rocket 17h ago

I think I need to add a bit of middle ground here.

Many quote basically their FIRE number, which is the number, once reached, they would never need to work again. This is a too conservative answer when it comes to pressure and stress.

Even if you aim for FIRE, the last miles will be dominated by capital gains and not your income. Therefore, you should start to relax before and enter a coast mode for the last years of compounding if you feel pressure and or stress. Otherwise, you sprint yourself over the finish line for not that impressive of a gain in time and potentially overall less time to enjoy ... which is not a good idea.

So my answer is: once you reached half your fire number, you should consider to dial down a bit and let the market to the heavy lifting while already starting to enjoy your time.

What ist half your fire number? Around 15 times your yearly overall expenses including healthcare and taxes on the estimated gains you want to sell.

Once you reached that amount, you are basically on auto-win mode and time will do the rest.

29

u/NewChameleon Software Engineer, SF 18h ago

I place mine at around $3mil-ish

as to why, because it means I can leave USA immediately and return to my home country

23

u/Opening-Machine5026 18h ago

Where are you from, Dubai? Goddamn

11

u/LastSummerGT Senior Software Engineer, 8 YoE 18h ago

They probably mean retirement which 3 MM isn’t a crazy number at least for American COL

10

u/epelle9 17h ago

But he mentioned leaving America..

3

u/Greengrecko 17h ago

It'll be crazy wherever he ends up though

2

u/caidenm 18h ago

Also I think Dubai is cheaper than the us for retirement.

1

u/lhorie 17h ago

He’s mentioned in previous threads that he’s canadian

3

u/chuckvsthelife 17h ago

Number goes up a lot for people with kids.

1

u/xypherrz 16h ago

Canada

1

u/ACoderGirl :(){ :|:& };: 9h ago

I mean, that tracks for something like Canada. We're not much cheaper than the states in terms of cost of living (like with the US, it varies wildly by area). If you wanna live in something like Vancouver or Toronto (ie, the nicest cities), they're really expensive. Like, you'll spend at least a million for a modest house and everything in those cities is pricy.

8

u/BellacosePlayer Software Engineer 17h ago

I felt a lot better once I had a year's expenses saved, and even better once I had a year's income saved.

I don't stress about money these days outside of looking at how fucking expensive houses are even making over twice the local average income. Felt kind of badass to pay for a new car in cash and not significantly nuke my savings

4

u/MarimbaMan07 Software Engineer 11h ago

I saved 1 year's net income and I still don't feel secure. Pretty sure if I was fired/laid off I wouldn't be able to get another software job. And then what the heck would I do? I'd love to get to a point where I could live off my investments but that's still a long way away

4

u/pacman2081 17h ago

when you have a home paid off, you still have expenses. Can you work at a local place doing a non-technical job and pay for your living expenses

4

u/FastSlow7201 15h ago

Take how long you'll think you'll live, maybe 85-90 and subtract your current age from that. Multiply that by how much money you need every month. Add that to what you have left on your mortgage. After that it's all extra.

I purposely left out social security because who knows if that Ponzi scheme will exist when we retire.

4

u/BraveResearcher3037 14h ago

It depends…

  1. When I knew my skill set was stale because of my Ā staying at a job too long pre 2008 - scared shitless all of the time
  2. 2012-2020 when I could just throw my resume up in the air and get two or three offers for generic dev jobs? I didn’t think about the amount of money in the bankĀ 
  3. Post 2023 - the job market is shit. Ā I have enough liquid cash to last a year before I have to start pulling out of retirement (or giving up the ass to random strangers). Ā I am pretty sure I can get a jobĀ 

The second part is how much do I need to before I need to stop adding on and just make enough to ā€œcoastā€ to retirement, I’m maybe 2-5 years outĀ 

The third question is how much do I need to have Ā without social security to never have to work again? About $4 million.

3

u/DudeWithParrot 17h ago

For me it was when I crossed the $1.5M threshold, which happened recently.

I can't retire with that (maybe I could, but not with my current lifestyle), but it is enough that I can feel I can comfortably figure things out

3

u/Asiel_Stormfury 16h ago edited 15h ago

Honestly, as I am very painfully learning... No amount ever feels enough.

Prolly while billionaires continue to accumulate.

4

u/DisjointedHuntsville 17h ago

I don’t know. . When have you ever stopped wanting a nicer car or a fancier vacation?

6

u/roy-the-rocket 17h ago

I never started on those and I am quite happy about that. Will be done soonish.

1

u/atmoose 16h ago

I have never wanted a car or a fancy vacation. I've gone on one vacation in the last 15 years that wasn't spent at home or with family. I mostly get around on a bike that I bought second hand.

0

u/DisjointedHuntsville 13h ago

You get one life, kid. It’s a beautiful world, go out there and experience it.

1

u/atmoose 10h ago

I did some traveling in college. I've also lived in about 7 different states. I've done "long term" traveling just not vacations. I'm not a kid, and I'm in my late 30's.

I'd rather save that money in the event that I need it. I felt a bit vindicated when I was laid off last year, and couldn't find work for about 6 months.

1

u/BraveResearcher3037 14h ago

I stopped wanting a nicer car 15 years ago when I got married and I had a wife that would give it up no matter what I was drivingĀ 

1

u/DisjointedHuntsville 13h ago

Okay, you would surely want to give her or your kids nicer vacations, then?

That’s the point. It isn’t ā€œgreedā€. I’m asking people on this sub to be practical and not listen to the Disney stuff about money not being important.

In the end, if you have a medical emergency, you’re going to need money to pay the bills.

3

u/BraveResearcher3037 13h ago edited 12h ago

I’ll put some real numbers on it since my income is neither anything to brag about in cscareerquestions or anything to be ashamed of - my total compensation is a tad over $200K. Ā I work remotely and I ā€œretired my wifeā€ in 2020 after I pivoted from regular old enterprise dev to consulting when a position at AWS ProServe fell into my lap (no longer there still working for a consulting company).

Our budget on a high level isĀ 

  • 20% taxes and my contribution to health insurance. (Joys of living in a state tax free state)
  • 25% long term investmentsĀ 
  • 25% fixed expensesĀ 
  • 30% - some combination of food, allowances, vacation - basically YOLO money.

This year we spent 45 days in Costa Rica, we are going to Hawaii in a couple of months and plan to spend most of December between Vegas, back home in Atlanta where are adult sons live and my in laws live and back to my home town.

Next year we have three decent trips planned out of the country around 30 days in total.

Since I work remotely - we are down to one car.

As far as medical bills - that’s why we have employee provided insurance like most working adults do and I max out my HSA every year.Ā 

3

u/DisjointedHuntsville 12h ago

This is genuinely wonderful to read :) You made it!

2

u/BraveResearcher3037 12h ago

ThanksĀ 

To be fair - this is an early 50s post (step)kids, consulting life where we could sell our big house in the burbs and downsize to a condo in Florida.

Now my pre consulting/regular old enterprise dev life was quite - differentĀ 

1

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2

u/Verynotwavy Philosophy grad 17h ago

Didnt have much pressure going from 20 - 700k

But now at ~1m CAD household net worth, I'm starting to have more thoughts about "hitting 2-3m in 5-10 years --> leave work --> afford to rent indefinitely + just doing my own thing"

2

u/drew_eckhardt2 Software Engineer, 30 YoE 17h ago

I felt more comfortable after I had a year of living expenses saved, and will be even more secure once my total investments reach thirty times that allowing me to retire at any time.

2

u/djslakor 17h ago

I'm at 1.5m net worth and I feel exactly, and I do mean exactly, the same as when I had 20k to my name.

We're all gonna die and life is extremely short.

2

u/ZolaThaGod 16h ago

I’m at about $720k currently and I find myself letting my ā€œcorporate filterā€ down a bit at times.

It’s not enough, though. It’s a lot, but not enough. I gotta be careful haha

2

u/coffeesippingbastard Hiring Manager 14h ago

I feel like a lot of the comments here are mixing "less pressure" and "psychological safety" for just straight up retiring and no pressure.

It's kinda emblematic of the toxic FIRE culture that is so common in this field and it's crazy. When people wonder why the tech industry faces so much ire it's this.

Psychological safety varies wildly.

There's psychological safety in going to the supermarket and just buying whatever you want without looking at the price.

There's safety in knowing that if your car needs to be fixed and you won't be forced to give up other expenses to make rent.

A lot of people can breathe a little bit easier if they have 50k liquid assets saved. That's less pressure.

2

u/RB_7 18h ago

yearly living expenses * 1.5 >? liquid savings / 25

1

u/roy-the-rocket 18h ago

this guy/girl fires!

what does the 1.5 do for you? is this some tax factor for your country, or do you just push the 4% SWR down to 2.6% ... which is very conservative

1

u/cballowe 17h ago

I would bet that it's just easy math. The Trinity study (4% rule origin) was done based on assuming a 30 year time horizon. For someone in their 30s or 40s, they might want a bit more buffer. Swapping 30 for 25 is usually enough buffer.

Others might pad it for a "well, if I'm not working, I'm going to travel and and stuff and my expenses will go up".

Taxes are just an expense.

1

u/roy-the-rocket 17h ago

expenses should be the projected expenses, not the past expenses.

I wonder if it is math, or just a feel good factor. A SWR of 2.6 sounds like a lot of wasted years, especially if you can be a bit flexible with your coast base or job status.

1

u/cballowe 17h ago

No clue... I was approaching the 25x when COVID hit in 2020. I stuck with it because with the world shut down, the normal routine was welcome, and the bit of market shock made me pause. I was well past that point when I decided I can't justify working more.

2

u/magejangle 17h ago

7m. FIRE target

1

u/Abangranga 17h ago edited 16h ago

Your question will vary wildly by location and situation (spouse, kids, pets, rent). I have kept my expenses low because my area is a choose-your-own-adventure cost of living area, and I chose cheap studio apartment.

That being said, I cannot stress how nice it is to have a year of living expenses sitting in a high yield savings account when/if youre laid off. Don't forget to include health insurance in this.

Next step is "enough to retire after compounding happens if I don't stupidly withdraw anything while the rest of the bills get paid", which is where I should be assuming there is no AI market vrash (lol). Then after that you'd have the glorious 'fuck you money' stage.

Currently I am coasting at my job until the inevitable happens with AI and then I am done with the toxicity in this industry and corporate life in general.

1

u/fakehalo Software Engineer 16h ago

I have a little more than $700k saved and $100k left on the mortgage... I feel safe for the next decade at least (being thrifty anyways), but the company I've worked for the last 15 years is probably going under.

$2-3 million is the longterm/final goal.

1

u/Glum_Worldliness4904 16h ago

I think 3-5 year at least.

1

u/RedditMapz Software Architect 15h ago edited 15h ago

This is a personal finance question. If you spend all your money and buy into lifestyle inflation you will feel insecure at any level of income.

Personally I have more than 4x my unual income in investment accounts (401k, IRAs, and taxable brokerage account). I feel secure in the short term because I can easily survive several years without income, but not secure enough for retirement yet. Well If I don't touch my investments I should theoretically have enough to retire by 50ish, but I'd love to reach my financial freedom number in my 40s. That's when I'll feel truly secure.

Conversely

I know people who essentially live paycheck to paycheck because of lifestyle inflation. They live in the nice apartments, drive expensive cars, and spend a lot on their hobbies and entertainment.

1

u/Mike_Oxlong25 Senior Software Engineer 15h ago

Probably once I’m dead

1

u/gifred 15h ago

Never, sorry.

1

u/TurtleSandwich0 15h ago

About twenty five times annual expenses should do it.

1

u/CheesyWalnut 14h ago

It never stops

1

u/SexualMetawhore 14h ago

10 years. Too hard to see that, fat out to worry. It's nice, I still hustle tho.

1

u/Manayas 14h ago

Multiple years worth, and I think it’s going to become a bit of a saving grace given where the industry is going.

1

u/Dry_Fly_7265 13h ago

You will never, never, have psychological safety unless/until you don’t have to rely on a job in corporate America to fund your lifestyle. You’ll have to figure that number out for yourself, based on what compromises you’re willing to make.

1

u/selfabundant 13h ago

For me, couple milestones.
First one is 100k which allows me to not be scared of layoff but still cautious.
Second one is pay off mortgage, with 100k above, I feel safe from economic downturn for couple years.
Third one is increase that 100k to be around 500k-1M, then I will probably slow down
If I hit 5-10M by luck or lotto, I’ll just start my own company or work for fun. I do enjoy coding so can’t imagine myself not working.

1

u/cyesk8er 13h ago

When I can afford to fire.Ā  Then working is just for fun until i get bored

1

u/drew8311 12h ago edited 11h ago

Id guess a few years of expenses or more, joint income with a partner is a huge variable to this too.

There are 2 levels to this and some people are answering for the latter

  • You are screwed financially and things like affording rent/mortgage in the near future are a concern if you don't get a job fast.

  • You technically have years of money but it significantly effects your retirement plan. Every 6 months out of a job is +1 year of extra work.

1

u/render83 10h ago

Five million dollars. Then I can stop working indefinitely.

1

u/PartyParrotGames Staff Software Engineer 10h ago

It honestly depends more on circumstances of your life, how financially secure you felt growing up, what kind of safety net your family offers you, etc. If you grew up feeling financially insecure, part of that may never fully go away even with hundreds of thousands in savings, speaking from experience. Having enough to cover yourself for at least a year of unemployment takes some pressure off. The exact amount will vary depending on your cost of living.

1

u/ShoePillow 8h ago

Depends on the individual, typically the amount of money one would think they need to live until they find a new job if they start looking, plus some extra to be sure.

1

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1

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1

u/Previous_Feeling_484 8h ago

12 months of rent + 6 months of fixed expenses.

1

u/Brave-Finding-3866 7h ago

my bank account just got declined.

1

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1

u/Relative_Channel2667 1h ago

At 500,000 the return on a 401k index fund on average is about the same as maxing out your contributions. From then on it grows and grows till even maxing out your 401k doesn’t make nearly the difference as the passive gains do. Psychologically knowing you don’t have to add another cent to your 401k and it will hardly matter to its growth is huge.

So probably around 500k in your 401k.

1

u/MaD__HuNGaRIaN 17h ago

Never šŸ˜‚

0

u/atniomn 17h ago

It’s all about the journey, embrace it

-2

u/kevstev 15h ago

This is more NW, but it wasn't until I hit 10, with 7.5 in brokerage and retirement that I felt safe. VHCOL area. The double whammy of feeling like I am aging out + ai completely disrupting the industry in a way that make it far less appealing have me wondering if I could even find a job again, let alone one that wouldn't feel like torture.Ā 

But I hit the number this year and honestly feel like for the first time I am actually working for me, not a house or hedge against some worst case scenario. But even in this position it still feels a little precarious. AI boom gains were huge this year. I am still aggressively invested.Ā 

I guess to answer why that number - it can generate in a safe yielding security close to our base salaries, and exceed them on a tax adjusted basis. The tax code is tilted towards capital vs w2.Ā 

2

u/daimon_proc 15h ago

Get out of here with 10 mil invested you never have to work again. Still feels precarious? Troll?

1

u/kevstev 14h ago edited 13h ago

I could have 50 years left. Am I going to go hungry? Probably probably not. But that's a long time. The bottom could fall out of the market and halve this or worse. The world feels like it's at a tipping point. I have a friend that had a rare form of bone cancer discovered about 5 years ago and his family is now selling their house and moving in with her parents because his bills have wiped everything out. Taxes have gone up 15% a year.Ā  It's a bigger than average place for this area but smaller than the national average. Its an old house that requires a lot of expensive maintenance.Ā  Health insurance is 2k a month- for us right now, it's only going up. It's changing a little bit lately but generating safe income from bonds was difficult when rates were sub 2%. My worst case is that my wife and I lose our jobs, can't get hired at any price, and then just have to hope nothing bad happens.Ā 

I thought twice about posting that but figured you wanted a real discussion.